82 replies to this topic

[Mel Mad Dog Winters]

In Battletech, each jump jet gave a mech up to 30 meters of lateral distance that they could jump. They could also clear obstacles or land on top of things 1 level higher than their current elevation level for each jump jet point they had. So with jump jets of 5 you could clear obstacles or land on things with 5 elevation levels higher than the mech's current elevation level (roughly 2 1/2 mech's worth of height).

Jump jets prior to this were OK, and I've been waiting for this fix for a long time. That they left the trajectory borked for this last patch is disappointing for me. There are lots of fun combat maneuvers that one can pull off in a faster mech with jump jets—even though they are situational and the timing is important to not have them backfire on you.

The only limit on max jump jet values was the max walking speed of the mech concerned. If you could walk 7 hexes, you could put up to 7 points of jump jets on the mech (ie: a Jenner, for example, which normally only has 5).

The jump jets in this game were never as good as in the board game, and I was not expecting that. For instance, in the board game you could be running full out forward and then suddenly jump backwards and land behind someone that was chasing you. That kind of awesomeness is not likely to appear in this game, but fixing the max height and distance would help.

And while they're at it, I'm still hoping to see some iconic fast jump-capable medium mechs.

Edited by Mel Mad Dog Winters, 21 December 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[blinkin]

Mel Mad Dog Winters, on 21 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

The only limit on max jump jet values was the max walking speed of the mech concerned. If you could walk 7 hexes, you could put up to 7 points of jump jets on the mech (ie: a Jenner, for example, which normally only has 5).

that could be an interesting way to approach it. give engines a certain amount of tonnage that they can alocate to jump jets (scales up with engine size) and keep the jump jets scaling up in weight based on mech tonnage. give all the jump jets the same power but light fast mechs can equip more of them than heavy mechs.

a catapult that scaled down to a 100 engine might only get 1 JJ and be barely able to climb the short warehouses in river city and might not be able to jump the river walls at all, but a severely up engined genner might be able to climb some of the ice cliffs in frozen and most of the buildings.

[blinkin]

bump because JJ need fixing.

[Dirus Nigh]

I tested out my jenner after posting claiming that jump jets where still useable in another thread. I had to correct myself big time. I have four jump jets in my jenner. I should at the very least get 20-30m into the air at a reasonable thrust. Enough to get on top of a four story building. I cannot clear a one story building. It is allot of noise and loss of momentum for no gain. Sure I can use it to turn but that is not what they are for. I can not jump over small buildings to brake contact from people chasing me. That is BS.

[blinkin]

Dirus Nigh, on 22 December 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

I tested out my jenner after posting claiming that jump jets where still useable in another thread. I had to correct myself big time. I have four jump jets in my jenner. I should at the very least get 20-30m into the air at a reasonable thrust. Enough to get on top of a four story building. I cannot clear a one story building. It is allot of noise and loss of momentum for no gain. Sure I can use it to turn but that is not what they are for. I can not jump over small buildings to brake contact from people chasing me. That is BS.

cool points for actually testing the ideas in your post and being able to admit you might be wrong.

now i have to admit that for catapults the current jump mechanics may make sense, definitely takes some getting used to though.
i would still like a quick jump alternative.vv
http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry1643685

but jenners get screwed thoroughly by this.

[Monkeystador]

yeah. needs fixing.

[Goreshade]

Agreed, JJ need to have more elevation per JJ, as it was in the TT rules.

Bump for justice

[blinkin]

bump because this thread hasn't been let out to play in at least a week.

[Bhael Fire]

JJs are indeed useless now...not worth their weight/crit space in any way whatsoever.

Not sure why PGI went with such a dramatic nerf. It'd make sense if the number of JJs gave you exponential vertical clearance based on mech weight instead of a static rate.

[blinkin]

Bhael Fire, on 28 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

JJs are indeed useless now...not worth their weight/crit space in any way whatsoever.

Not sure why PGI went with such a dramatic nerf. It'd make sense if the number of JJs gave you exponential vertical clearance based on mech weight instead of a static rate.

i think the max jump is pretty realistic and just generally feals right for heavy mechs, but light mechs take it very thoroughly up the rear.

[blinkin]

bump to save light mechs.

[General Taskeen]

An issue I've had with Jumpjets ever since Closed Beta is simply that they go so damn slow. A jump jet should expend fuel quickly and jump the Mech in the direction the Pilot is trying to get to (or on top of) just as fast. In other words, if a Mech had a default build of 5 jets and used half of the jump fuel, they would have already jumped half the distance that they are rated for, in a short time and not the slow lift off that they have been. Other Mech titles have perfect JJ's that work basically like that.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 December 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Kobura]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1660585

Too bad the jumps are useless. Just can't do anything with them. They got nerfed into terrible... the worst part is that PGI's math is right, but the maps are ridiculous in their scale. An actual TT battle map of these maps would be a clusterscrew of heights and depths and such. TT JJ would be useless on those maps too if following the maximum JJ elevation rules (can vertically reach half of max long-distance jump) since most mechs would be allowed to rise between three and five elevations (one and a half to two mechs' heights).
__________________________________________

Referencing Total Warfare p53: A unit can jump over and into any hex, regardless of terrain type. If this path crosses a level higher than the sum of the unit’s Jumping MP plus the level of the hex in which the jump started, then the unit cannot make the jump.
(TL;DR is you get your jumping number plus your starting elevation number as a maximum height you can clear)

So it's your starting plus half your long jump capability, which for say the 5-JJ Jenner *should* be 150 meters. Since the Battletech Master Rules/Rules Compendium pre-Total Warfare state a level is about 6m, the Jenner should be able to get 30m straight up into the air.

Frankly that's fairly high. Unfortunately, the maps are epic huge in scale and the jets are simply inadequate for how monstrous the terrain is. I can't even imagine what the tabletop maps for these battlefields would look like.

[blinkin]

Kobura, on 29 December 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1660585

Too bad the jumps are useless. Just can't do anything with them. They got nerfed into terrible... the worst part is that PGI's math is right, but the maps are ridiculous in their scale. An actual TT battle map of these maps would be a clusterscrew of heights and depths and such. TT JJ would be useless on those maps too if following the maximum JJ elevation rules (can vertically reach half of max long-distance jump) since most mechs would be allowed to rise between three and five elevations (one and a half to two mechs' heights).
__________________________________________

Referencing Total Warfare p53: A unit can jump over and into any hex, regardless of terrain type. If this path crosses a level higher than the sum of the unit’s Jumping MP plus the level of the hex in which the jump started, then the unit cannot make the jump.
(TL;DR is you get your jumping number plus your starting elevation number as a maximum height you can clear)

So it's your starting plus half your long jump capability, which for say the 5-JJ Jenner *should* be 150 meters. Since the Battletech Master Rules/Rules Compendium pre-Total Warfare state a level is about 6m, the Jenner should be able to get 30m straight up into the air.

Frankly that's fairly high. Unfortunately, the maps are epic huge in scale and the jets are simply inadequate for how monstrous the terrain is. I can't even imagine what the tabletop maps for these battlefields would look like.

this is the first TT reference i have seen that does not ask for 30m per JJ. it is also one of the rare TT references that actually references specific sources.

i don't like where the evidence points, but good job anyways.

[Kobura]

blinkin, on 30 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

this is the first TT reference i have seen that does not ask for 30m per JJ. it is also one of the rare TT references that actually references specific sources.

i don't like where the evidence points, but good job anyways.

I think the way that Jumpjets have been done in the game, what they ought to go for is elevation over specific long-distance of jump. That way the unit's pre-existing velocity determines the distance.

[blinkin]

Kobura, on 30 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I think the way that Jumpjets have been done in the game, what they ought to go for is elevation over specific long-distance of jump. That way the unit's pre-existing velocity determines the distance.

the jump jets have never provided any sort of forward thrust since i started playing in closed beta. after you left the ground it was all inertia.

i agree that they need more upward motion than what they currently have. the lack of up motion severely punishes light pilots.

[StalaggtIKE]

The trajectory is too low. I only use them for quick turns and cushioned falls.

[MasterBLB]

All mates who talks about JJ being realistic,understand we don't want realistic but fun to use and useful jump jets (but not overpowered).
Pre-nerf they were almost perfect except the max height should be decreased to allow to jump only on top of medium height buildings in River City and jump over an assault mech,but that's all.
With each added jump jet they should allow to reach higher ceiling as well as allow some maneuvers during jump.
Well,take a look at:
http://mwomercs.com/...ment-jump-jets/

Edited by MasterBLB, 31 December 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[blinkin]

MasterBLB, on 31 December 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

All mates who talks about JJ being realistic,understand we don't want realistic but fun to use and useful jump jets (but not overpowered).
Pre-nerf they were almost perfect except the max height should be decreased to allow to jump only on top of medium height buildings in River City and jump over an assault mech,but that's all.
With each added jump jet they should allow to reach higher ceiling as well as allow some maneuvers during jump.
Well,take a look at:
http://mwomercs.com/...ment-jump-jets/

not sure how other manuevers would be added other than increasing flight time.

as for the rest i totally agree. JJ before were a bit OP, but this has taken them too far in the other direction where they are borderline useless.

[Karl Split]

Jumpjets seems awfully crappy to me, ive removed them from all my mechs. 4 JJ on my catapult reports a max jumprange in game of 40 meters which is just crap. Gimmie TT jumping or give me death!

Its not like it will unbalance things, anyone foolish enough to jump that high will be a target for everyone else on the map ><