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Ecm And Lrms? How To Fix It Fix It Fix It!


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#1 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:34 PM

First off, this topic is very similar to this one http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/81147-ecm-an-analysis-of-the-system-and-how-to-fix-it/, however my approach is similarly long and hopefully as well thought out so I decided to make my own thread. I believe GoriKarafong's approach is also a very good approach, but have my own concerns about its balance, so I decided to come up with my own. I apologize if this is long winded, you can either just read the second post or that and my introduction if you want to skip most of this.

Introduction:
Now that that's out of the way, here is the gist of my suggestion: The problems with ECMs and LRM/SSRM boats are effectively coupled, since ECM was released as a counter to missile boat builds. Since you cannot nerf ECM without effectively buffing LRM/SSRM boats, my suggestion is to nerf both simultaneously. I believe it's important to do this, because the performance of an entire class of equipment should not be so singularly dependent on whether or not your enemy chooses to equip one other piece of equipment. I also believe its important because the nerfs I suggest will, hopefully, encourage counter play, which will make them more fun for players and theory-crafters. If you don't know what counter play is, please watch this video: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play

For ECM, the nerf would come in the form of having it not hiding nearby friendly mechs, not blocking radar from functioning on nearby enemy mechs, not preventing operation of SSRMs within its bubble of operation, and not being able to shut off enemy ECM.

For LRMs, the nerf would come from making non-LOS (Line of Sight) locks require significantly more investment in terms of tonnage and critical slots or an investment in greater amounts of teamwork.

For SSRMs, the nerf is more complicated, and would be dependent on making the weapons less reliable either by continuing to allow ECM to be

I'll explain what I think is wrong with all the systems currently in this post. If you want to skip to a simpler explanation as well as my suggestions for what to change, skip to the second post. (It's like choose your own adventure!).

LRM/SSRM Boats and ECM - A Highly Coupled Problem:
No discussion of ECM is complete without an equally well thought out discussion of missile boats. For a while, it seemed as though missile boats were highly overpowered. Teams purely composed of missile boats were common and the highest scores on a team were often dominated by the guy with LRMs and Artemis. Perhaps equally popular and destructive were SSRM boats. This loadout, while sometimes easy to counter, could be devastating for any pilot not keeping a watchful eye and maintaining good range from his enemy and proved to be nearly as popular as LRM boats.

With the advent of ECMs, LRM boats and SSRM boats are suddenly completely non-existent. There are certainly exceptions, and rarely you'll see a game where an LRM boating player climbs to the top of a match, but these are incredibly uncommon and are usually enabled by the random PUG match-up that includes little to no ECM.

ECM has had a HUGE impact on the balancing of the meta game, and while it is certainly good to not see skies full of LRMs, its disappointing to know that making an LRM boat is a huge risk and can leave you with matches where you are unable to fire a single salvo.

LRMs, Where the Problem Started:
While we could argue about whether or not these builds were overpowered or not or whether popular opinion is one thing or another, the simple fact was that LRM boats, were far too common.

Part of what caused the initial popularity of LRM boats was bad netcode and low framerates. Players who encountered these problems found solace in missile boat builds because their performance was not affected by their framerate or ping. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Almost every highly competitive multiplayer game has a strategy that is helpful to those whose computer or internet connection might put them at a disadvantage.

The problem was that these builds also enabled players to simply sit back and let their teammates spot for them while they rained down a very large quantity of damage (especially with initial implementation of artemis) by simply pointing and clicking. They didn't even really need to communicate much with their teammates, although doing so definitely improved their performance somewhat.

What's also interesting is that even though LRMs appeared to be so powerful, it is fairly rare to see individual small launchers being used as complementary to other weapons systems. It's also rare to ever see them used for LOS targets.

ECM - "WE NEED MOAR ECM!":
I added the quote above because of the many times I've heard serious 8v8 players get angry at their teammates for not playing mechs with ECM. I've also heard 8v8 players sadly ask a teammate to switch off with another because they didn't yet own a mech with ECM or simply did not enjoy playing variants that do have them. These anecdotes illustrate 2 points.

1: More ECM is always better- If we had every mech and every piece of equipment available to us, there'd be no reason to use anything that didn't have ECM. There are no drawbacks (besides a tiny weight and criticals requirement) and the system is hugely effective. ECM has so many benefits that it's difficult to even recite them all from memory. On top of this, the most reliable and easy counter to ECM is more ECM because of counter mode.

2: ECM is perceived as a necessity- In 8v8 matches, any team without ECM believes it is at a disadvantage. Any team with less ECM than it knows it can field will worry if it has enough ECM be competitive.

These are both BAD! No piece of equipment that weighs only 1.5 tons and takes only 2 criticals should be SO IMPORTANT!

SSRMs - A Difficult Problem
SSRMs certainly seem relatively balanced when you equip 1 or 2 of them. Their damage/weight is good but not too good, they help heavy mechs target light mechs, and they allow fast moving very light mechs to have a weapon that can deal consistent damage.

In fact, I'm going to admit that I'm not sure they are unablanced. However, it certainly seems as though when faced with a mech with 3 or more SSRMs, many pilots, especially pilots of very slow or very light mechs, feel helpless. This is bad, from a gameplay perspective. Certainly you could argue that better piloting and tactics should help, and those are certainly things we should want to encourage. However, while pilots develop those skills they need some sort of crutch. Something that maybe limits their maximum capabilities, but allows them to gain a better sense of piloting and tactics so that one day they can do away with their crutch.

Edited by p4g3m4s7r, 19 December 2012 - 04:19 PM.


#2 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:38 PM

A Breakdown of the Proposed Solutions:
From here on out I will break down each perceived problem and propose my own solutions.

LRM Boats are too powerful and require too little skill to be effective:
LRM boats can pack a really surprising amount of firepower given how simple and precise their application of said firepower can be. As such, I propose a few simple fixes:

1: Vanilla LRM systems (as in having no Artemis, BAP, or help from TAG or NARC) should have no non-LOS lock on.

2: When fired LOS, LRMs travel in a straight line to their target with a 30% increase in travel speed.

3: NARC'ed/Tagged mechs are instantly locked onto if targeted by a missile boat.

4: Artemis no longer provides any grouping benefits to LRMs but instead allows for locking onto non-LOS targets. Artemis enabled LRMS now take up 2 extra critical slots and weigh 2 extra tons, and have 75 shots per ton. Artemis still causes SRMs to take up one more slot and to group more tightly.

5: NARC lasts 1 minute and never fails to stick to an enemy mech but can be blown off of a mech by friendly or enemy fire (but this shouldn't be too easy to do). NARC ammo now contains 12 shots per ton and the launcher weighs 1 ton.

To me, (1) adequately removes the "easy mode" factor of using LRMs while (2) allows LRMs to be effective in "non-easy mode".

I suggest (3) and (4) because I feel as though there should be a way to LRM boat, since support weapons systems like this exist in real life, but I don't think they should be nearly as effective or as easy to field as they were pre-ECM. Yes, I know this is a non-canon implementation of Artemis, but so was it's initial implementation.

(5) is because NARC sucks and needs to not suck. Seriously, attempts to fix NARC have so far been laughable. My suggestion is intended to make NARC substantially better than TAG because it can be removed, is countered by ECM, and requires ammunition.

ECM is too powerful, not fielding it is a detriment to your team, "OMG LET'S JUST ALL ECM GET IN A BIG GROUP AND CHARGE THEIR BASE!":
ECM is really just too powerful, especially for how light it is. It's effects are too wide ranging, too complicated, and its only counter is "MOAR ECM!" (the mark of a terribly designed gameplay element, btw). However, it's necessary to give new players a crutch against SSRM boats and LRM boats. So what do we do?

1: ECM no longer cloaks friendly units.

2: ECM no longer cuts an enemy off from their teams radar signatures or the enemy's radar signature from their team.

3: ECM no longer causes your HUD to flicker.

4: An enemy mech with ECM cannot be locked onto with either LRMs or SSRMs. This is countered only by a friendly TAG from outside the disruption bubble.

5: An enemy mech with ECM is only targetable if you have LOS and are within 20% of normal targetting distance. At that point, it will show up with a distinct radar signature (perhaps a red eye?). Mechs with BAP will be able to target this mech at 30% of normal targetting distancee.

6: ECM now disables all missile locking systems of any mech targetted by an enemy mech with ECM. Any mech with disabled locking systems has a low signal bar symbol by it.

7: ECM can be turned off.

8: Every chassis should have at least one variant that can equip ECM.

(1) (2) and (3) are because these cannot be canon. These not only were not, but could not, be implemented in TT. You might argue that (1) is canon in double blind (I think) but double blind is not the tournament TT specification and is thus not required to be balanced.

(4) is so that new players can have a crutch for dealing with LRM and SSRM boats but cannot do so without impunity. Defeating this effect can only be done with teamwork, however. I chose this strong of an effect because simply extending lock-on time does not really accomplish much and has a disproportionately low effect on heavy mechs.

(5) is so that ECM is also a stealth system. Stealth systems in mech games are fun and I believe they should exist in Mechwarrior games (I always ran in passive radar in MW4 and it was great). However, they should not make your whole team invisible, that's too powerful. Also, the special indicator ensures that this stealhiness comes with some form of opportunity cost that is not simply extra weight. A good team will target players with ECM but since we are currently stuck with PUGS + 4-man premades, there needs to be some way to communicate this without typing.

(6) is so that ECM can be a disruption system and so that there is an active way to counter missile boats.

(7) since ECM comes with active opportunity costs, it should be able to be turned off.

(8) since ECM has a far weaker effect now, it isn't going to be nearly as much of a problem to have a lot of people using it.

"SSRM boats are E-Z mode":
Equip ECM. If my version of ECM is implemented you don't have to worry nearly as much about SSRM boats. If you can't equip ECM, make sure you are faster than SSRM boats or know how to deal with them.

I'm hoping the above changes to ECM are adequate to balance SSRMs substantially, but as Dropdeadfred pointed out, they would probably be an overly hard counter to SSRM boats, so I'll add the following provision.

1. SSRMs may be fired without lock.

So being an SSRM boat is a huge opportunity cost, as ECM users may angrily disable your ability to gain a lock on anyone, but you can still do damage to good damage slowpokes and assault mechs while you wait for your friends to bail you out (there better be some nearby).

In Conclusion:
Thank you if you took the time to read any of this and especially if you commented. I hope at least someone agrees with my suggestions. I'm sorry if I'm a little long-winded but I want discussion on ECM and I really want PGI to understand that there is something fundamentally wrong with the current implementation both of ECMs and of LRMs and that something needs to be done.

Edited by p4g3m4s7r, 19 December 2012 - 03:19 PM.


#3 Dropdeadfred

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

Very nicely put, and a well thought-out design for a fix. I really like how you've looked into each part of the ECM/LRM/SSRM 'system' and thought of a way to balance each against each other.

I'm a Commando 2D pilot that abuses the ECM system right now. Even with the last patch and the nerf, it's still really good. More needs to be done.

I love the idea that ECM only hides YOU. Fixes the BAP. Still allows stealthy play. I wouldn't change much with how ECM mechs are targetted right now though. An ECM light with BAP becomes a great scout and spotter for the Artemis LRM guys.

I also love the idea that the mech you target is then affected by the ECM. You've told your ECM to dial into that specific mechs radar signature and jam it. You then leave yourself open to that persons teammates to come save them. Promotes teamwork, I love it. (With that said, your HUD should flicker if you're the one targetted by the ECM)

No more non-LOS LRM fire, loving it. Right now it's like a noob cannon (when ECM isn't blocking it).

Speeding up the missles for LOS shooting, love it. If I'm running laterally from an LRM boat, I can literally outrun the missles tracking me and they don't hit me (139 kph Commando).

Artemis giving non LOS fire. Love it, but only after RnR comes back. Artemis was countered before by the expense of re-equipping your mech. That's gone, so now Artemis is a no-brainer. Giving LRM boats the ability to non LOS fire is a no-brainer until the expense of doing that returns.

I can't comment on NARC, as I haven't used it in game yet. It sucks so badly, I don't see the point. If Narc over-rode ECM, then it's suddenly useful! (it's a different radar signature then the mech you're targetting...how many radar frequencies can you really jam? If you're jamming a ****-ton, then how do you know you aren't jamming friendly transmissions as well?) I can just see it now over Ventrilo "I NARCed him!! LIGHT THAT COMMANDO UP!!"

I've tried TAG, I didn't like it personally much, so won't comment on it.

Streak SRM's...shutting down a mech completely by walking up with ECM I don't like. Hard counters are bad. LRM's can still be dumb-fired. SSRM's should be allowed to be dumb-fired when under the effects of ECM. Gives the pilot a chance to fight back against that pesky ECM. It's still a short range missle, let it act like one :)

So, there you go. Spoken as a current ECM abuser.

#4 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:12 PM

View PostDropdeadfred, on 19 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Artemis giving non LOS fire. Love it, but only after RnR comes back. Artemis was countered before by the expense of re-equipping your mech. That's gone, so now Artemis is a no-brainer. Giving LRM boats the ability to non LOS fire is a no-brainer until the expense of doing that returns.


My intent is that the system would be balanced outside of any sort of RnR system, but would also enable a distinct but limited form of play (non-LOS boating). I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps my current criticals cost is too low.

View PostDropdeadfred, on 19 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Streak SRM's...shutting down a mech completely by walking up with ECM I don't like. Hard counters are bad. LRM's can still be dumb-fired. SSRM's should be allowed to be dumb-fired when under the effects of ECM. Gives the pilot a chance to fight back against that pesky ECM. It's still a short range missle, let it act like one :D

So, there you go. Spoken as a current ECM abuser.


Ya, now that I think about it, you're right. Will edit my original post to reflect this.

#5 WardenWolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:10 PM

OP: your links appear to be broken

#6 WardenWolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

Also - and your post is very long, so I didn't read the whole thing (I'm at work) - I am worried about your premise that ECM was introduced to counter LRMs and Streak SRMs. That is incorrect, and so any conclusions flowing from that are likely to be flawed.

ECM, in the BT / MechWarrior universe, is to counter the other advanced techs that cropped up around 3050: BAP, NARC, Artemis, and the like. It was *not* to counter any of the normal weapons systems. It should block those advanced techs from working on friendly targets within 180 meters of the ECM equipped mech, and should block sharing of target data by / with enemy mechs inside that bubble as well. That is all. Right now it is doing far more than that, and therein lies the problem.

Edited by WardenWolf, 19 December 2012 - 04:14 PM.


#7 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

OP: your links appear to be broken


Fixed! Thanks for the heads up :D

View PostWardenWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Also - and your post is very long, so I didn't read the whole thing (I'm at work) - I am worried about your premise that ECM was introduced to counter LRMs and Streak SRMs. That is incorrect, and so any conclusions flowing from that are likely to be flawed.

ECM, in the BT / MechWarrior universe, is to counter the other advanced techs that cropped up around 3050: BAP, NARC, Artemis, and the like. It was *not* to counter any of the normal weapons systems. It should block those advanced techs from working on friendly targets within 180 meters of the ECM equipped mech, and should block sharing of target data by / with enemy mechs inside that bubble as well. That is all. Right now it is doing far more than that, and therein lies the problem.


I understand what ECM was meant to do in table top, however I think the way that plays out in a real-time game where you don't magically know where all your friendlies are because of "tabletop-ness" breaks a pure tabletop implementation. Also, the devs were clearly not trying to accomplish the same thing as tabletop ECM when they implemented this version.

My implementation was meant to try to make the system more interesting (what the devs were clearly trying to do) while encouraging counter play, teamwork, and interesting variant design.

I think a pure tabletop implementation could definitely work and be interesting, but I don't think it encourages counter play, and would end up being about as fun to use as BAP.

#8 WardenWolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

View Postp4g3m4s7r, on 19 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

My implementation was meant to try to make the system more interesting (what the devs were clearly trying to do) while encouraging counter play, teamwork, and interesting variant design.

I think a pure tabletop implementation could definitely work and be interesting, but I don't think it encourages counter play, and would end up being about as fun to use as BAP.

Hmm, I will have to go back and read your whole suggestion when I have a few minutes. It looks like you've seen other threads about fixing ECM as well, so I'm curious as to your thoughts on what I suggested a couple weeks ago:

http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry1559928

#9 WardenWolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

Okay, so I've read (most) of your suggestion now... and while the spirit behind it is admirable, I think it is just too complicated. Adding tonnage to make LRMs effective at indirect firing is not found anywhere in BT / previous MechWarrior games. I think loosening up what ECM does is a much easier solution, and could still be extremely balanced (and an effective counter to LRMs when used smartly, but not an 'easy mode' solution like it is now. Simply removing the effects it has on things outside of 180m would be almost perfect, and *maybe* increasing the missile lock time when targeting things inside a friendly ECM bubble.

I look forward to hearing what you think of the link I provided above.

#10 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:38 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Hmm, I will have to go back and read your whole suggestion when I have a few minutes. It looks like you've seen other threads about fixing ECM as well, so I'm curious as to your thoughts on what I suggested a couple weeks ago: http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry1559928


Ya, I think your suggestion would also work and would probably be the easiest to implement. The only problem is that it would not address the current issues with SSRM boats and LRM boats. Granted, ECM isn't supposed to do that anyway. I also feel like it would be, perhaps, a less dynamic implementation. However, that would need to be seen in play testing.

#11 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:52 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Okay, so I've read (most) of your suggestion now... and while the spirit behind it is admirable, I think it is just too complicated. Adding tonnage to make LRMs effective at indirect firing is not found anywhere in BT / previous MechWarrior games. I think loosening up what ECM does is a much easier solution, and could still be extremely balanced (and an effective counter to LRMs when used smartly, but not an 'easy mode' solution like it is now. Simply removing the effects it has on things outside of 180m would be almost perfect, and *maybe* increasing the missile lock time when targeting things inside a friendly ECM bubble. I look forward to hearing what you think of the link I provided above.


I think implementing ECM as in canon would have no effect on the status of missile boats because, as in all previous mechwarrior games, increasing lock-on time does not actually make it difficult to be a missile boat and it does not significantly decrease the amount of missiles thrown at you. The chief issue with missile boats is that they can simply field so many launchers without needing to use teamwork for them to be effective. Also, increasing lock on time has a far less detrimental effect in a real time game than in a table top game.

My suggestions were meant to be barely more complicated than the current implementation of things already in the game. Really, the only aspects of what I've suggested that's more complicated than what's already in game are that LRMs cannot acquire lock without LOS or Artemis and that ECM disrupts the locking capabilities of a targeted mech. And you could actually argue that these are still less complicated than their currrent implementation, being that they are feature reductions.

#12 Chou Senwan

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:31 AM

Missile boats were annoying. There needs to be a counter. Unfortunately, the counter now results in ECM-shielded lights with streaks of their own, which dominate in light vs light duels.

I'm fine with the idea of ECM hiding just you, and being able to jam one mech within 180 meters if you have it targeted. That's a very useful tool for 1.5 tons. If you equip multiple ECMs and can target multiple enemies, you can jam them all.

#13 WardenWolf

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:06 AM

I personally feel that the counters to LRM boats should be AMS + putting your own light mech with ECM near the enemy missile boats. If you do that, then they are within 180m of hostile ECM and would get all screwed up (they couldn't access shared targeting data, so they would only be able to fire on LOS and TAG'd targets). That makes combating LRMs more of an active solution, rather than passive.

Now for Streak SRMs, I think simply the increased lock-on time would be enough. They aren't horribly OP anyways, since the largest current launchers are SSRM2 in size. When the Clans arrive, with SSRM6, that will be a bigger issue... but I'm not sure that ECM should be the solution. ECM should be "nice to have" (like BAP - same tonnage and size) - but it shouldn't be essential to victory, like it is now.

#14 AlanEsh

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

Good stuff over all, but I think this bit needs a change:

Quote

[no LRM lock on]is countered only by a friendly TAG from outside the disruption bubble.

You shouldn't have to be outside the disruption bubble. TAG is a laser and the missiles home in on that laser light, not on an RF transmission from your mech.

#15 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:04 AM

View PostAngelicon, on 20 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Good stuff over all, but I think this bit needs a change:

You shouldn't have to be outside the disruption bubble. TAG is a laser and the missiles home in on that laser light, not on an RF transmission from your mech.


I don't think it's reasonable or an inherently good idea to try to make game design decisions based on how something should work in real life. Especially when we are trying to discern how things will work in real life 1000 years in the future. Also, as an employee of a company that deals extensively with radar and targeting systems, I can come up with innumerable reasons why ECM and TAG could (with todays technology) work as I've described.

Also, if TAG countered ECM no matter what, everyone would equip TAG. Everyone has excess energy slots (normally) and TAG weighs less than ECM and has no variant limitations. Also, TAG is already nearly OP as I've described. My greatest worry with my suggestions is that, if implemented, everyone would just equip TAG and we would be back to have too many missile boats.

View PostWardenWolf, on 20 December 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I personally feel that the counters to LRM boats should be AMS + putting your own light mech with ECM near the enemy missile boats. If you do that, then they are within 180m of hostile ECM and would get all screwed up (they couldn't access shared targeting data, so they would only be able to fire on LOS and TAG'd targets). That makes combating LRMs more of an active solution, rather than passive.


Ya, I think they could have ECM counter all LRM launchers within the bubble (not just the targeted one). I added the limitation to the targeted mech in order to be conservative with ECM's capabilities.

View PostWardenWolf, on 20 December 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Now for Streak SRMs, I think simply the increased lock-on time would be enough. They aren't horribly OP anyways, since the largest current launchers are SSRM2 in size. When the Clans arrive, with SSRM6, that will be a bigger issue... but I'm not sure that ECM should be the solution. ECM should be "nice to have" (like BAP - same tonnage and size) - but it shouldn't be essential to victory, like it is now.


I think my implementation would provide safe and conservative performance for the SSRM6 when that comes out (granted, so much clan tech is OP that I can't imagine them actually implementing them perfectly true to canon.

I think the effect of increasing lock on time for streaks would not actually decrease their performance substantially for light mechs, but would just make it so that SSRMs would be useless against light mechs with ECM and pretty much change nothing for heavy mechs with ECM being targeted with streaks. I'll have to think it over, though. It seems like that might be a good change.

#16 AlanEsh

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:36 AM

View Postp4g3m4s7r, on 21 December 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

I don't think it's reasonable or an inherently good idea to try to make game design decisions based on how something should work in real life. Especially when we are trying to discern how things will work in real life 1000 years in the future. Also, as an employee of a company that deals extensively with radar and targeting systems, I can come up with innumerable reasons why ECM and TAG could (with todays technology) work as I've described.

I agree with your first sentence. But TAG being a hard counter to ECM is not only logical, it is a good thing.

Quote

Also, if TAG countered ECM no matter what, everyone would equip TAG. Everyone has excess energy slots (normally) and TAG weighs less than ECM and has no variant limitations. Also, TAG is already nearly OP as I've described. My greatest worry with my suggestions is that, if implemented, everyone would just equip TAG and we would be back to have too many missile boats.

But TAG isn't "automatic", you have to hold the thing on the target. It's not easy to keep enemies reliably TAGged for your LRM friends. And so what if everyone carries it?
a ) it isn't 100%
b ) at least it requires a hardpoint as opposed to ECM which can to anywhere

ECM needs a serious kick in the nuts and I think TAG as a hard counter is the perfect steel-toed boot for the job. Assuming it didn't get one while I've been away for a week :)

#17 Zyllos

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:15 PM

TAG as a hard counter to ECM is just plain wield. While it, physically, makes sense. In gameplay, it does not.

I personally think they need to tune down all the effects of ECM by a great margin.



Quote

- Make 1 Counter ECM counter all Disrupt ECM in range. I personally think making 1 Counter ECM work against all Disrupt ECM a big one because then it isn't always about fielding more ECMs, but instead using your Disrupt ECM to scout and not run into another equipped ECM mech to be countered and open for locking weaponry. This also doesn't make the Atlas D-DC team (4+ ECMs) just invincible against lock-on weapons because your team didn't decide to take 5+ other ECM mechs. This is really a way to give a reason for a team to take mechs other than ECM but to take at least 1 ECM mech for disruption.

- Make ECM reduce sensor range by 50%, not 75%. ECM is ment for scouting, not keeping certain mechs locked out of firing. Even at 400m sensor range, LRM users will only have 220m worth of workable distance to lock on with missiles while SSRMs will only have 90m.

- Let the BAP display some indication that an ECM equipped mech is within normal sensor range (according to Sarna saying BAP is jammed by ECM but indication is notified). Maybe give BAP users "pings" (kinda like how Thermal Mode shows the ping sweep, which seems like to me PGI is already testing out) so they can spot where ECM mechs are physically at. Once teams start to only take 1 or 2 ECMs, having BAP which gives pings to physical locations could be used to detect where ECM mechs are located at so you could chase the ECM mechs and destroy them with direct fire weapons. Then you might see teams start to take no ECM and work together with BAP users to counter ECM.

- Any mech equipped with ECM, running in Disrupt mode, should not be able to lockon with LRMs/SSRMs. This provides a pro/con for having equipped ECM.

- As many have said, fix the issues with hit detection. This will really help out in the department of having light mechs survive a disproportional amount of fire according to their weight. But this is obvious, just extremely important and I am sure PGI is working on.

- Change NARC to provide non-LoS targetting for an extended period of time. Allow PPCs to destroy them on hit (or location destruction) and Disrupt ECM within 180m to stop the beacon while it is broadcasting.


#18 Túatha Dé Danann

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

Well, well. The whole idea is nice in some ways, but the solutions are not (in my view)

LRM-boats are a valid loadout, as well as any other loadout can be. Direct fire weapons like lasers or ACs can be fired on enemy mechs even without target information. Missiles which need a lock-on need a spotter. If you do not have LOS, you do not get a target and so you do not have a lock-on. If someone is spotting for you, a missile lock-on is already justyfied by the one who spottet for you.

No spotter = no lock on

You can also see the missiles incoming and have a big, red warning at the same time. Hiding behind a hill or a building will help you to survive. This way, the LRMs do exactly what they should. Dealing suppressive fire. If you get hit by this "artillery", you have to count with heavy damage on your mech.

Artemis right now is underpowered. For the 1 ton + 1 crit slot more, I can fill in other really nasty things.

ECM counters LRM-boats, because they hinder you to lock on, while the enemy may already be in weapons-range. This means, you need you spotter to counter their ecm. LOS is somewhat illogical for a weapon, that is supposed to fire in an indirect way.

The problem with LRM boats is, that if two or more are out there, that you cannot really counter them with close range brawling, so you have to hide until they are out of ammo. A good player can hide, a bad player will be ripped apart.
Our LRMs are some kind of noob-tube which is a critic to the LRMs, BUT you only view it from this perspective. You forget, that LRMs have a great tactical purpose and can be used in an intelligent way to suppress and deal damage even without LOS.

If you want to counter LRMs, counter it with AMS. If you want to counter ECM, use direct fire weapons. If you want to counter streaks... well, streaks are not that powerful, right? ECM is enough.

The thing I see here, is that many people rely too much on ECM. While ECM is nice, I can fight even without any target lock with direct fire weapons - named lasers, ballistics and SRMs.
The problem will only go on, if you try to use lock-on weapons. And here we have the TAG as a counter. TAG the enemy outside the bubble and you are good to go.

Again, this is the work of the spotter. Now you may find out, how important a spotter can be and the lack of spotting mechs shows how thin the edge of balance is.

You try to argue in this system without a spotter - but the spotter is THE main mech to screw the enemy. Problem: nobody wants to play him, because he is tiny, got no firepower and must hide and seek for the whole game while the rest of the team gets the cheese. But this is not a problem for the game, its a problem of the community. An organized 8 man group will have a spotter, if they use LRMs. If they don't use LRMs, they do not need a spotter.

Really, I think the system like we have it now is pretty balanced. Only the players have not really adapted to it, because the tactic is advanced. This needs advanced players. I call it again: Adapt or die!

#19 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostDropdeadfred, on 19 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I can't comment on NARC, as I haven't used it in game yet. It sucks so badly, I don't see the point. If Narc over-rode ECM, then it's suddenly useful! (it's a different radar signature then the mech you're targetting...how many radar frequencies can you really jam? If you're jamming a ****-ton, then how do you know you aren't jamming friendly transmissions as well?) I can just see it now over Ventrilo "I NARCed him!! LIGHT THAT COMMANDO UP!!"


The NARC beacon is a Radio emitter and not a Radar emitter.

Remember that radar is used for detection, not for communication, which is what the NARC is doing.

The original creators and writers of the BT fiction really had no idea how an ECM suite is supposed to operate. All frequencies all the time is not how things work.

You have a radio jammer (reality), you have a radar jammer (reality), or you have a power hog that barrage jams Hz-Ghz (MW:O) and puts out lots of heat (because of the electrical energy running through the system). We should be able to see that on a radar scope as a massive hairball and be allowed to drop ordnance on it. IT should also not be on all the time as the transmitters and modulators can be burned out through overuse.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 26 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.


#20 EmGooser

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:32 PM

1. LRMs and SSRMs are not broken from ECM. Tag now reaches out to 750m and if you have a proper scout you can LRM to your hearts content. In fact just this weekend I had at least 5 games were I was about 1000 dmg with a 4 lrm15 stalker because I had 2 of my buddies running tag. God forbid you work together.

2. In 8 mans you can still be just fine without ECM. If your team wants to run all mediums and out maneuver your enemy you still can and I have seen many 8 mans win with this.

3. Before ECM the streak cats were just crushing anything in the med or light category but now they are few and far between. However, if you have a buddy doing counter you can still run them. Yes you have a risk of being over disrupted but it is a deadly build with a deadly counter so I don't see a problem here.

4. LRMs are NOT dumb fire, they never have and never should be. Every mechwarrior game in the past always had them tracking in some way. All the tag effects, Artemis, and other effects are also just fine as is because they just make the missiles track better.



ECM make this game a lot more complex and I love the change. The more tactical the better and currently it is closing some of the weapons that needed to have counters to them. With the latest patch with the 750m tag, now it has a counter to the counter. Simple fact is that as new items are added this game is going to change. Making a huge overall to a system already in place would be a waste of time to me, I would rather have them working on new maps, new mechs, PPC effects, and community warfare.

Edited by EmGooser, 26 December 2012 - 01:33 PM.






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