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Easy And Fair Reward For Kills, Assists, And Damage Done


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#1 Antonius Prime

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:08 AM

With the announced economy changes, I have noticed that Assists get more C-Bils than Kills, which I think is a little odd.

There is always a lot of debate over how to implement these and what is fair. I have an idea that would make it simple and cover fair about as well as can be in this format:
Combine the Kill, Assist, and Damage done into one simple stat. Call it the "Kill, Assist, Damage" bonus or whatever you like. It would work like this.

No flat Kill or Assist Bonus.
There would be a flat bonus for each enemy Mech killed. (Let's say 10,000 C-Bills)
The flat bonus would be divided among those who contributed based on their % of the contribution.

Examples:
1. Jenner sneaks up on undamaged Awesome and takes him out through Rear CT. He gets 10k.

2. You work hard, but are inefficient with your shot placement. It takes you 300 Damage to take down a single Mech, but you do it single-handedly. You get 10k.

3. You line up twin Guasses on an undamaged, unaware opponent and cockpit shot him into oblivion. You get 10k.

4. You work hard and do 90% of the total damage done to a Hunchback. A teammate does a drive-by and finishes him off for the remaining 10%. You get 9k and your friend gets 1k.

This system is not only pretty fair, but it also does not punish players for being efficient with how they take down an enemy. If you wanted to reward for mechs that are damaged but not destroyed, then you could prorate it based on how close the Mech was do dying (say, based on 75% total Armor/Structure being assumed as the "would be death point" or something).

Sure, it is not perfect. I do think it is pretty good, though.

Thoughts?

Edited by Antonius Prime, 18 December 2012 - 04:56 PM.


#2 Elder Thorn

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:20 AM

thread will be locked, we are not allowed to post feedback about this patch yet, because Mods are going full ****** again!


http://mwomercs.com/...s/page__st__100



Quote

Please provide your feedback about this patch in the appropriate forums once it is actually live.
Thank you!


#3 Xeven

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

Assist is the best meter for determining skill at team play and tactical skilled players. If your entire game is spent focused on one or two enemy mechs then your probably not being much of a team player and your probably causing your side to lose more often than win.

Any team that coordinate their fire, even a pug team using chat can almost always win even if you just bulldose over the ridge TOGETHER.

If you all focus your Alpha on a single mech one right after the other you really wont ever lose unless the other team is doing the exact same thing and does it better.

Assisting and damage done should pay more than a kill shot. I have a few builds designed essential to steal kills like the AC 20 K2. An alpha from a K2 is almost certainly going to finish off any mech that has taken damage already. Gauss cats and Some Atlas build can do the same.

Even an LRM Boat can selectively steal kills if ECM is being countered. PGI is doing this right at least at the moment...

#4 Antonius Prime

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

Thank you. I posted a new thread here:
http://mwomercs.com/...nd-damage-done/

Please redirect all feedback to this thread.

#5 Ceribus

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

I really like this Idea overall.... can't really see any issues with it

#6 Antonius Prime

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:04 PM

ok, they removed the thread in the patch section, so I continue to use this one.

#7 Vectoron

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:17 PM

Good post, i think that will allow people to see they actually earned their kills. Rather than them THINKING that it was THEIR kill. Cant tell you how many 120+ xp reward kills ive had and been blamed for kill stealing lol...

Edited by Vectoron, 18 December 2012 - 10:18 PM.


#8 Kodiak Knight

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:20 AM

That really does sound fair, yes.
I want that!

#9 BlacKcuD

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:32 AM

If you kill a mech in an "efficient" way like blowing his remaining leg of you will receive much more cbills+xp than you described here. You will always receive like 2+ component destructions for simply blowing him up.

The only scenario where this isn´t true if you snipe the cockpit (not center torso), but on the other hand this will almost always be a quick and decisive kill which will yield its indirect rewards (shorter round, faster win, quick lopsiding of battle, etc)

#10 Antonius Prime

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:32 PM

Yeah, the point isn't that I have an exact amount of C-Bills figured out. The devs can do that. In fact, they can make the reward a bit higher and get rid of Component Destruction C-Bills also if they want.

The point is twofold:
1. Reward people (C-Bills) for contributing to downing enemies.
2. Reward people (C-Bills) more proportionately to their actual contribution than is done currently.

Again, I didn't really care about this too much before, although I knew there were definite holes in the system. Then, they changed it to where an Assist give more than a Kill. I started thinking about the reality of this. In what sport, career, or headhunting group is the setup ever rewarded more greatly than the actual execution? Sure, they track Assists, Rushing Yards, Referrals, etc., but the employers need an execution. The last thing a basketball coach wants is a bunch of people being tempted to pass the ball for the greater reward from an Assist rather than taking the shot they know they could sink. Made baskets win games. Still, they don't want people just shooting everytime they touch the ball, so they track Assists in order to give some recognition to those (like John Stockdon of old) who are great at contributing and making baskets happen. Awesome team players.

My system does that better than anything currently. If you contribute 80% of the damage dealt to an enemy before he falls, you get 80% of the C-Bill reward.

Sure, Pilot#1 might be a bad shot and get 80% of the reward over the Pilot#2 who then comes up and takes out 100% his cockpit unassisted by you. But was P#2 truly unassisted by P#1? P#1 at the least kept his attention and at the best removed some of his mobility or weaponry, making him less of a threat and giving P#2 an easier time of lining up that killer cockpit shot. Keep in mind that P#2 was likely also involved in another prior kill while P#1 was still fussing with that same enemy, so in the end P#2 still is likely to get more overall reward thanks to his efficiency.

It rewards the guy who works hard and it rewards the guy who is deadly efficient. Most of all, it pays for what those who are paying want most. Efficient Kills is what every employer wants, and so, will be most willing to pay for. Unless you are fighting for sport so that others can enjoy the show, who is going to Pay you for destroying components they could have salvaged anyway?

In truth, I'm trying to think of this like a relationship between an employer and a mercenary/soldier and want it to make sense, yet still be as fair as possible.

#11 Buehgler

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

This is a solid idea. I just posted something similar yesterday, but probably got too lost in some details for people to understand the idea.

The key idea is to reward people for doing the thing that matters in a game type. For Assault (which they should probably rename Team Death Match), that should be doing damage. For Conquest they need to figure out similarly simple reward/victory mechanics that encourage the type of play they really want (as I experienced it yesterday it is also just a slower form of TDM).

There are lots of cute ways to enhance/expand this idea, but the core idea of giving exp and c-bill rewards that are tied to damage will be a clear winner and discourage people from "touching" every opposing mech to maximize their "assist" score.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that they have an infrastructure in place that will support something like this and that the devs can see the benefit.

#12 DeadEyeDeale

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:15 PM

I agree that Kills should not be worth more than Assists. I do understand the idea of encouraging people to work together and be assiting on as many kills as possible, but in open combat I feel like this overly encourages someone to go running around tagging everyone on the battlefield before focusing kills.

I propose a slightly different take: Assists and Kills would be be worth a very small base amount (maybe 500-1000 for assists and 1500-2500 on kills) + (%damage dealth prior to target's death * some value) where some value is either a flat amount (say 3-4 thousand) or based on the target's tonnage/weight class.

Examining the current (new) system:

I do like the recognition that all kills are not created equal. Killing a Light is not as valuable as killing an Assault, strictly speaking. Yes, objective and scenario and skill determine if this is true on the battlefield, but when fielding a force, you usually want as much weight as possible. I really like that Damage Payout makes a distinct difference for the 'strength' of the target killed. However, for accurate or clean kills, this is diminished. The enemy's threat was the same, thus I think their value should be close to the same.

Using K for thousand
Kill = 5.0 K
Damage = 25 * Points Dealt

While a light can do a better job of spreading damage, we'll just use the general default armor to represent armor for this comparison. Clearly most kills are earned without stripping a target down of all total armor.

Commando has about 128 armor
Atlas has about 600

Commando: 128 * 25 cbills per damage = 3200 - 64% of the kill's value.
Atlas: 600 * 25 cbills per damage = 15000 - 300% of the kill's value.

So tearing up heavier mechs does add a lot to your income. However, this is only seen as you do lots of damage to the enemy. And yes, this does divide money up some based on who did a lot of damage to a target over others, and rewards people who did a lot of damage but secured no kills. However, as mentioned, efficient kills are only rewarded with a 'safer' and 'faster' match.

#13 Alfred VonGunn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

The current system is already fair...

If you do say 300 points to that one mech but someone else gets the kill.. You get 7500 for the Assist plus 7500 more for the damage you did.. Not counting if maybe you were the first to spot the guy ect.. The reason I believe they have given Assist more then Kills is to get people to work together.

#14 Antonius Prime

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:38 AM

To the point about "touching" every Mech.
Exactly. Why not do a quick drive by through the enemy in your light and flash a quick laser on as many as you can? You'll get an Assist for every one that gets taken down. If you win by destruction, that's pretty much a 60,000 C-Bill spotting/recon reward.

#15 DeadEyeDeale

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:10 PM

I thought about it some more, and will agree that while odd at first, the monetary system does work. My first instinct was that something was off, and I imagine some people feel that way. I hadn't really thought about it in depth. Let me do some math craft to try and explain. First are the examples which make the system seem bad. Then (Example 5 on) are examples which make the system look balanced. I do this analysis in the same order I did it because I was first trying to prove myself right, and then found I was wrong. Assists being worth more than kills is actually important to allowing scouts/lights to keep up monetarily with heavier hitters. Just like spotting bonuses.

-If this is too long for you, just skip to the bottom couple paragraphs.

Of note: I'm excluding spotting/component/win/loss/objective income for this comparison.

Example 1:
If you 'touch' all 8 enemy mechs for assists, you get
7.5K*8
= 60K

If you kill all 8 enemy mechs, you get
5K*8
= 40K.

That's only 20K difference. If that's all you look at, though, then you get 50% more money for assisting over killing!

So, let's look at Damage as the factor which most clearly indicates and rewards ability -> aknowledging that head-capping or other clean kills make the round go faster and secure wins/kills even with little damage and are worthwhile. Also noting that good scouting/awareness is invaluable.

Example 2:
I'd like to compare a solid-hitting player who secures, for the sake of example, half of the kills with no assists, to a person who 'touches' the entire enemy team but does little damage.

Someone who 'touches' all 8 enemy mechs, and only does 100 damage total in a round will get
(7.5K*8) + (100 * 25)
= 60K + 2.5K
= 62.5K

Someone who hits well and kills 4 mechs with no assists: Say 100 damage per mech.
(4*100*25) + (4*5K)
= 10K + 20K
= 30K

Ouch, the 'touch' scout got more than double. But - what if the second person also got 4 assists on the other half of the enemy team?
30K (previous) + 4*7.5K
= 30K + 30K
= 60K

That's a big difference! So what is the % difference in getting 4 kills and 4 assists vs 8 kills?
60K from before = 4*5K + 4*7.5K + 10K (in damage)
8 kills * 5K + 10K (in damage)
= 40K + 10K
= 50K.
So 20 % more money than if half of those kills were assists, which is more reasonable.
Still seems like a lot of difference.

Example 3:
So let's consider someone who is most excellent, doing 150 damage to every enemy, and securing all 8 kills.
150*8*25 + 8*5K
= 30K + 40K
= 70K

Now that's some money. But that scout from before made 90% of what was earned by this clearly amazing fighter. That is not to discount the often underated value of a scout (and meat shields for LRM boats).

Example 3A:
Let's consider Example 3, but with assists instead of kills.
150*8*25 + 8*7.5K
= 30K + 60K
= 90K.
That's ~28% more income switching 8 kills for 8 assists. A good bit!

While not a friggin' huge difference, 28% is significant, and this feels 'off'. So I kept Mathing.

-----
Example 4:
Now let's compare that same scout (62.5K income) to an absurd extreme. One player did 300 damage per target, and killed 8 enemies.
That's 300*8*25 + 8*5K
= 60K + 40K
= 100K

Okay, now that scout made 62.5% of this person's income. This is reasonable - but oh man is that a lot of damage. Some of you might be just so amazing, but I know I will likely explode on the day I deal 2400 damage in one match.

Example 4A: On a Win
What if that person hadn't gotten the kill, and got assists on all 8 people instead?
That's 300*8*25 + 8*7.5K
= 60K + 60K
= 120K
20% more money than if this person had earned 8 kills. What the heck? Ahh... I'm looking at an extreme - the range of possible differences, not of likely differences.

So if you do a ton of damage, it looks like it doesn't matter as much for income. But we're at an upper extreme in damage, and only looking at wins with 8 assists vs 8 kills. Let's do something reasonable.
-----

Example 5:
Let's take a more realistic look. Suppose only 3 kills were had.
Person A gets 3 kills, and did 200 damage to all 8 enemies. (1600 total)
Person B hit all 8 enemies, but did a total of 100 damage.

Person A gets 3*5K + 200*8*25
= 15K + 40K
= 55K

Person B gets 3*7.5K + 100*25
= 22.5K + 2.5K
= 25K

Okay, there we go! Person A got over double the payout of the 'snag scout' example.

Example 6:
Let's do a very reasonable example:
Person A gets 2 kills and an assists, doing 200 damage to each kill, and doing 110 extra damage to the enemy team. That's a sound 510 damage in the round.
Person B gets 3 assists and does 100 total damage. (as in Example 5) This is common for my scouts, at least.

Person A gets 2*5K + 1*7.5K + (200*2+110)*25
= 10K + 7.5K + 12.75K
= 30.25K

Person B gets 3*7.5K + 100*25
= 22.5K + 2.5K
= 25K

There we go - that looks just right. I could make a graph, but am now sufficiently satisfied with this realization.

On an average and reasonable match, fighting hard and doing damage is worth the most. On a win, the 'touchy' scout gets a bit more - but that person also did a lot to get around the map and see everything - which is very useful. That person also likely was not able to dish out a lot of damage since they had speed or something else enabling their mobility/survivabililty. Plus, it isn't that common to get 8 assists no matter how hard you try - enemy scouts, large battlefields, and getting sniped will end your spree. In a fight where everyone was grouped up, most people will get a full 8 'touches' on the entire team, enabling a max of 8 assists for all 8 players.

Mainly: no one gets an assist for a kill that never happened. The only money recieved in that case is from damage (and component destruction, etc).You can't count on winning every match, so you can't bank on getting 8 assists. So 'touching' enemies is less valueable if you lose, since those surviving enemies never died and time was spent finding all the enemies rather than hammering them.

Edited by DeadEyeDeale, 20 December 2012 - 03:38 PM.






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