80 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

man i seriously cant wait to see what happens to clan tech in the name of balancing

[MustrumRidcully]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

Ever considered that maybe your medium lasers are the problem, Garth? Maybe it's just a bit too good in MW:O? In the table top, it was already considered good or slightly overpowered, but there, 6 medium lasers meant likely hitting 4-6 hit locations and not all hitting the same spot and dealing massive damage, and you would rarely hit with all 6 in the first place (and most likely not at a range of 270m). The Hunchback 4P would in the table top be able to fire 8 medium lasers for several turns before it have serious heat issues. It wasn't an overpowered mech there, it's not possible to do it in MW:O, but if it was, you might consider it OP? Why is that? Why can't you get these builds to be working well heat-wise, without being overpowered?

I am not saying it's possible to make a 100 % translation, but I am confident that there are ways to get much closer. The math is out there. In the Closed Beta Archives, and in the memories of plenty of testers and posters here...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 December 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

True DHs are a problem. As it is right now, due to too many weapon hard points on most mechs, people are boating lasers like crazy with no worry about overheating. I'd be happy if they implimented some sort of heat backlash like in TT (movement reduction, aim reduction, etc).

SOmeone said it above: I'd support less effecient Small and Medium Lasers versus trying to rebalance the heavy weapons. They're already balanced, in part, due to heat.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 20 December 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[Buckminster]

Trauglodyte, on 20 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

True DHs are a problem. As it is right now, due to too many weapon hard points on most mechs, people are boating lasers like crazy.

Then is that a problem with true DHS, or a problem with the hard points?

[MustrumRidcully]

Trauglodyte, on 20 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

True DHs are a problem. As it is right now, due to too many weapon hard points on most mechs, people are boating lasers like crazy.

What Lasers?

Pulse Lasers? ER Lasers? Large Lasers?
Or does it not just all boil down to Medium Lasers?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 December 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Ever considered that maybe your medium lasers are the problem, Garth? Maybe it's just a bit too good in MW:O? In the table top, it was already considered good or slightly overpowered, but there, 6 medium lasers meant likely hitting 4-6 hit locations and not all hitting the same spot and dealing massive damage, and you would rarely hit with all 6 in the first place (and most likely not at a range of 270m). The Hunchback 4P would in the table top be able to fire 8 medium lasers for several turns before it have serious heat issues. It wasn't an overpowered mech there, it's not possible to do it in MW:O, but if it was, you might consider it OP? Why is that? Why can't you get these builds to be working well heat-wise, without being overpowered?

I am not saying it's possible to make a 100 % translation, but I am confident that there are ways to get much closer. The math is out there. In the Closed Beta Archives, and in the memories of plenty of testers and posters here...

Yeah its not like theyre not changing ANYTHING else in the game away from TT to fix for balance's sake

[zorak ramone]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

First of all, let me say that I greatly appreciate the fact that you guys are finally getting around to reducing the heat on the PPCs/LLs. This, combined with the excellent changes to the economy have boosted my hopes for the future of MWO.

As for the 6xML CDA, there are two points.

One, there are plenty of configurations that don't have to worry about letting go of the trigger right now that can do considerable damage (See any mech built around GRs, UAC5s, SRMs or SSRMs). Not overheating isn't a sign of imbalance, its just a way to build a mech (DPS over burst damage).

Two, I don't think most people would mind a 6xML CDA being about to fire its MLs all day without overheating if, when we see our weapons hit the CDA, our weapons do full damage. Weapons other than SSRMs, that is.

[Trauglodyte]

Buckminster, on 20 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Then is that a problem with true DHS, or a problem with the hard points?

MustrumRidcully, on 20 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

What Lasers?

Pulse Lasers? ER Lasers? Large Lasers?
Or does it not just all boil down to Medium Lasers?

C'mon now, we know that Small and Medium Lasers are pretty much out of control in the environment of TT. Classic Battletech was designed around using ranged weapons *drum roll* at range and using the short and medium ranged weapons as you closed. You hardly ever hit with the close-in weapons at long and extended ranges so people never bothered with it.

Now, because laser weapons have their ranges double, though the damage is reduced beyond their TT "max", people still fire them off. With both the Small and Medium Lasers being so efficient, there is NO downside to using them outside of their intended roles. On top of that, if your mech points support it (my Cicada 2A and 2B say hello), I can boat 5-6 Mediums with current game DHS and alpha for a good 10-12 times before I get to the critical heat alarm. That is 250-360 damage done with no issue and for a total of 5 or 6 tons depending on the chassis.

So, if we bump up the DHSs to true 2.0, which is further made more powerful due to adding to the heat threshhold (something that I've NEVER liked about this game - 30 is 30 is 30, that's it), you're allowing crazy amount of too efficient weapons fire even more often with the same lack of down side.

In summary, the problem isn't the Lrg, ER Larg, Large Pulse, PPC, or ER PPC. Small and Medium Pulses are fine too. Its the fact that you gain everything and lose nothing with the Small and Medium Laser that screws over the heavy weapons. AND, it happens to end up keeping us from moving to actual 2.0 Doubles.

[Pugastrius]

Since somehow we ended up on the topic of 2.0 DHS...

The "right" way to do DHS is almost the exact opposite of what it currently is:
Engine Heat Sinks = 1.4x
External Heat Sinks = 2.0x

As it is now, the mechs that have the fewest external heat sinks benefit the most (ex. the Jenner with 6xMLs). Since this this is a nerf directly targetting the small mechs, it would allow for greater reductions in heat expenditures for the larger weapon across the board.

Edited by Pugastrius, 20 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Ryolacap]

I get the feeling we will be seeing a lot less balistics on the field

[Ryebear]

Since you are required to have 10 heat sinks on all mechs and energy weapons are often light weight, it is prudent to use as many heat generating weapons to effectively expend the heat dissipation from those heat sinks. That means once you pick your main weapon system you fill in the remaining space/tonnage with a combination of heat generating weapons and heat syncs to reach a nice synergy between damage dealt and heat efficience.

The main problem with ERPPCs and LPLs is their weight and heat generation make them *have* to be primary weapons AND they consume your mandatory 10 heat sinks (and then some) forcing you to use up your "spare" tonnage on ballistics and missiles. The fact that the lightest ballistic, excluding the machine gun, is 6 tonnes+ammo but generates a tonne of heat, you basically have to bump that up to a AC/5, SRMs are tertiary weapons unless stacked(no damage dropoff at past 270m, the missiles just explode, they fly in an odd pattern, and they are relatively slow travelling etc etc).

That means you need a spare 9 tonnes minimum for back up weapons if you decide to take ERPPCs or LPLs as your primary weapons and every ERPPC/LPL past your first one takes an exhorbant number of heatsinks to counter makes them inefficient compared to all other weapons.

------

When building my Flame, it is better to use an AC/10 over a single ERPPC even though they have approx the same range, and the same damage and both projectiles. With the AC/10 I could do alphas of 28-30 ( and 9-8.24 DPS) depending on 4 mls or 2 LLs. With the PPC and 3 MLs or 2 LLs would do 25-28 (7.08-7.57 DPS) and a much worse heat efficience with loaded with heat sinks.

Oh also this:

Pugastrius, on 20 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

The "right" way to do DHS is almost the exact opposite of what it currently is:
Engine Heat Sinks = 1.4x
External Heat Sinks = 2.0x

Edited by Ryebear, 20 December 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Pulses technically need the increased heat to make them different from vanilla and ER lasers. But increased heat for what they do right now makes them useless. So they should simply have a much greater damage output, to the point where assaults would use them as their limb removal guns.

ERs run so hot, it's very hard to find any use for them. You'll rarely see ER large outside commandos and ravens, who'd field it as their one actually ranged gun.

[SpiralRazor]

Roknari, on 20 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Let the professionals test them internally first. I don't really want to see a bunch of Monday morning developers hashing out numbers without them even being run thru a test first.

Surprised to see regular PPCs on the list but I agree lg pulse, er large and erPPC can use something. Looking forward to see what they do.

Oh my...you are ignorant arent ya lol....Ive been here a long time now, and I dont trust them to test batteries anymore after what ive experienced.

I told Paul what needed to be done with the energy weapons months, and literally months ago and its taken this long to see some light.

No my friend, his numbers need to be released to the beta community...some of us who can actually do math will know next to instantly if the change is good, bad, overpowered or will relegate a weapon to flamer status.

[Vassago Rain]

der langsamere, on 20 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

There arent overly many positive threads in this forum are there?

If your forum's positive, it's not working as intended. You want forums to be something you can use to take the temperature on certain issues, so to speak, and in order to have that, you need a CRITICAL forum, that nitpicks.

Maybe 2% of all users even go here. Like in every other game ever. A heavily moderated, censored forum isn't a forum, but a hugbox. Do you think it's more useful to have a place that carefully picks apart anything you say, exposing both the good and the bad in your suggestions, while suggesting other alternatives, or a place where everybody's only ever positive, like the early ToR forums?

[SpiralRazor]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

Despite the math proving you wrong? Are you serious bro? Okay, okay, hows about the fact that lights/mediums dont get penalized NEARLY as much as the heavies and assaults that have to actually mount the 1.4 "DHS" ?? Care to comment on that discrepancy since PGI has apparently ignored all the math on true 2.0 DHS?

[Soy]

Pugastrius, on 20 December 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

If this is the way it works out, each of hte weapons will have it's own "place" in the damage spectrum.

The LL: Remains the "Jack of All trades"
The LPL becomes the short range weapon of choice.
The ER LL: Becomes the beam Sniper weapon of choice.
The PPC: Becomes the Mid-range weapon of choice
The ER PPC: Becomes the Sniper weapon of choice.

...

These already are the roles for these weapons.

The way I read it, they'll just tweak a few things to allow energy weapons to sustain output on a more consistant basis... and most likely just a little not a big buff...

Edited by Soy, 20 December 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Nuck Fewton]

did they ever give a real reason for no 2.0 heatsinks? I mean besides the "jenner coring a atlas in 3 seconds" crap? Said jenner still gets the 2.0 sinks and still cannot core a atlas in 3 seconds.

[Pugastrius]

Quote

These already are the roles for these weapons.

LOL no...

Jack of All trades: Large Laser
Short range weapon of choice: Large Laser
Beam Sniper weapon of choice: Large Laser
Mid-range weapon of choice: Large Laser
Sniper weapon of choice: Large Laser

Right now, if you're doing it differently, you're doing it wrong.

The Large Laser currently does more damage at any range for the heat it generates.

Edited by Pugastrius, 20 December 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

How are you building a CDA with 60+ heat dissipation? Is it some dev magic? You would need 30 "true" doubles to make it so you never have to "let go of the trigger."

As it is right now most CDA-2A builds would gain only a small amount of dissipation from outside-of-engine sinks being returned to doubles.

[One Medic Army]

Pugastrius, on 20 December 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

LOL no...

Jack of All trades: Large Laser
Short range weapon of choice: Large Laser
Beam Sniper weapon of choice: Large Laser
Mid-range weapon of choice: Large Laser
Sniper weapon of choice: Large Laser

Right now, if you're doing it differently, you're doing it wrong.

The Large Laser currently does more damage at any range for the heat it generates.

Well, there's a niche for PPC in the "I've just been shot... WHERE THE HELL DID MY TORSO GO!" category.