22 replies to this topic

[Duncan Fisher]

So it says that "Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited."

Let's say I find myself in a situation where I am piloting a light mech, and am challenged by a heavier mech like an Atlas. Does this rule forbid me from getting behind the atlas and hitting his rear armor, staying out of his front firing arc? Could I at least do full circles around him, or would I have to do figure eights and such, staying in front of him all the while?

Also I'm assuming things like ECM and streaks would be frowned upon, but if that's what I happened to be running, would I be obligated to turn off my ECM for zellbrigen?

Edited by Duncan Fisher, 21 December 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[Skylarr]

What kind of Light Mech are you piloting? a 20ton Fire Moth? With TAG , and 1x Streak SRM-4. Or a 35ton Jenner IIC? With 1x Streak SRM-4, and 2x SRM-6s. Or a 35ton Adder? With 1x ER Lager, 1x Ultra/5 and 2x Streak SRM-2s. Or is it some MWO variant with 3 or 4 Streak SRM-6s?

I am assuming the Atlas is from an IS Unit.
Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen. Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.


The Rules of Zellbringing will be up to you and your Clan leader to interpret. With others scrutinizing your actions on the Battlefield.

[Ice Naga]

This rule has to do with intentionally popping in and out of cover , which is considered cowardice to prevent the enemy from even getting a chance to shoot at you.

Using your mech speed and maneuverability to get access to a weaker portion of a mech shows more of players bidding capability and skill rather than cowardice.

[TABLETOP RULES CLARIFIER]

Zellbringen has a base set of rules, but they remain open to interpretation. A Smoke Jaguar warrior would not use Zellbringen in the same way as a pack of light Ice Hellion units or a point of Hell Horses tanks.

Do whatever you want, but remember that if your opponent thinks you intentionally broke Zellbringen, he can call you Dezgra and bring in all of his firepower to take you and your buddies out.

If you're looking for a more clearcut answer, then yeah, circling around to a larger mech's rear is typically frowned upon. It would be expected that the larger mech bid down the number of weapons he would use to even the fight between him and the lighter mech.

[qultar]

running behind him is the same as running behind a hill as he can not fire
do it a lot as a Clan member and see your self moved to a garrison unit

what you can do is zig-zag in his FOV and take shots at him

[CrazyPenguin]

I can not recall which book I read this information in, it was one of the Battletech manuals I believe, but here's what I remember about shooting at rear armor.

If you circle behind an enemy to fire upon their rear armor, then you violate zellbrigen. But if the enemy exposes their rear armor because of poor maneuvering, then it is their error and it is acceptable to fire upon their rear armor.

Edited by CrazyPenguin, 24 December 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Moving out of the line of sight is NOT a breach of zellbrigen.

Quote

Before Megasa could adjust his aim, Aidan went on the attack, firing off a rack of LRMs. Immediately he realized that his targeting system had not been fully adjusted for the change in ballistic characteristics dictated by low gravity. The missiles impacted twenty meters away from the Mad Dog, and before Aidan could get off a second shot, Megasa had moved his 'Mech into a field of rubble and boulders. Although the other man's 'Mech was not jump-capable, the big steps it took turned into low-arc leaps.

Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Book 2 - Bloodname

[Gremlich Johns]

Ice Naga, on 22 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

This rule has to do with intentionally popping in and out of cover , which is considered cowardice to prevent the enemy from even getting a chance to shoot at you.

\

And only when Zell is in place. If it is not in place, then do what you need to do.

[qultar]

Jaroth Winson, on 25 December 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Moving out of the line of sight is NOT a breach of zellbrigen.



Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Book 2 - Bloodname

the novels are far from hard cannon they brake game rules and stuff for sake of the story all the time.

Per Total Warfare, p. 275 it is a brake of the rules the only clan that mite let it slide is wolf as they used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen

[Jaroth Corbett]

qultar, on 26 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

the novels are far from hard cannon

What? The NOVELS are far from canon? Delete your account now. Seriously. Aspirin......... I need aspirin. You hurt my brain there. Does anybody have aspirin?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 26 December 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Jaroth is right, the novels/sourcebooks are the canon. This includes novels such as Far Country (as stated by Herb a while ago).

[Tremor]

There are other Clans very lenient on Zellbrigen, such as Sea Fox.

Also, in many instances Clan warriors did not follow Zellbrigen when interacting with Inner Sphere warriors. This is simply due to the fact that Zellbrigen are guidelines for honorable warefare, so if you or your opponant is dishonorable they need not apply. Most Inner Sphere units, especially mercenaries, were considered below this standard.

Therefor, if you are a Clan Mechwarrior and are challenged to Zellbrigen by an Inner Sphere Mechwarrior (in this case, Atlas), you could simply refuse or refuse to acknowlege. If you do engage in Zellbrigen, the rules are dropped the instant the rules are breached, be this you, he, or a member of either unit. Lastly, it is not a breach of conduct to remain in his rear firing arc, as you are technically still within LoS of him. He is responsible for being capable of facing you.

[Thorn Hallis]

Stormwolf, on 27 December 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Jaroth is right, the novels/sourcebooks are the canon. This includes novels such as Far Country (as stated by Herb a while ago).

Rules before canon.

[qultar]

source books and rule books are the True canon.

novels are done for a story sake and will have things "bent"
just to be a more entertaining read you cant take them as
hard canon they are soft as things are bent and changed
now the events are cannon but the fine points not so much

as for clans that do not follow Zellbrigen by the letter Wolf is one
the ghost bears use it unless fighting mercs they HATE mercs

[qultar]

Tremor, on 27 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Lastly, it is not a breach of conduct to remain in his rear firing arc, as you are technically still within LoS of him. He is responsible for being capable of facing you.

not true or you can say the same about running behind a hill
or running out of his weapon range

[Jaroth Corbett]

qultar, on 27 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

source books and rule books are the True canon.

novels are done for a story sake and will have things "bent"
just to be a more entertaining read you cant take them as
hard canon they are soft as things are bent and changed
now the events are cannon but the fine points not so much

as for clans that do not follow Zellbrigen by the letter Wolf is one
the ghost bears use it unless fighting mercs they HATE mercs

Give me an example of "bent".

[qultar]

off the top of my head stackpole have mechs going nuke

also what you posted is a brake in the rules from a rule book

the thing is there not to be taken word for word how many times to they
do things in a novel just to sound cool

[Jaroth Corbett]

No no no. You do not get off so easy. Give me a book title, chapter & page of something that was written that is "bent" because you can do so, you are speaking utter rubbish.

[qultar]

the book you used is a case in point it brakes the rule books

[Jaroth Corbett]

Show me where & how.