29 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

I've seen a few build question threads regarding Catapult K2. Most people avoided PPC like a plague under a universal reason - heat, which I really don't understand. I've been running my K2 with XL315, 20DHS, 2xML and 2xERPPC ever since the latest patch and it was f[beep]ing beautiful. I've had like 20+ matches, and overheated for like, twice. If a moderately good player, like me, with a roughly 1.3 KDR can manage the heat for dual ERPPC, then the PPC-too-hot shouldn't be an issue. It's already an AC10 that's almost only half as heavy, shoots way further and requires much less skill (incredible projectile speed), and you still want PPC to have less heat that a Large Laser? That's almost blasphemy. As long as you don't fire two PPCs/ERPPCs at once all the time, then the heat is not a problem.

Damn, I love standing over high grounds shooting heat spots far away while listening to the amazing "DANG!! Whizz-whizz-whizz-whizz".

EDIT: I do hope PGI adds EMP effects for PPCs though.

Edited by Helmstif, 22 December 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Stingz]

It's probably due to the fact same damage, more range isn't a very good trade in MWO. Clan ERPPC now that's worth taking, 15 damage/15 heat itself makes it better(not including other upsides).

Edited by Stingz, 22 December 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[Elizander]

Stingz, on 22 December 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's probably due to the fact same damage, more range isn't a very good trade in MWO. Clan ERPPC now that's worth taking, 15 damage/15 heat itself makes it better(not including other upsides).

Indeed. It might be worth it if say they let me smack things for full damage at 850-1k out, but any battle that starts at 600m can easily turn into a brawl.

[Shalune]

Helmstif, on 22 December 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

As long as you don't fire two PPCs/ERPPCs at once all the time, then the heat is not a problem.

That's part of the issue with ERs. If you can't regularly fire your weapons in unison you spread the damage out. You may end up doing more damage, but will result in slower kills. This is what makes 2x gauss so deadly.

I'm sort of with you though. I think ER PPC heat needs adjusting, but that neither ER PPCs nor PPCs are as far from ideal as people think. I love standard PPCs right now. I even have a cataphract build that uses 1 ER alongside gauss and a normal PPC.

ER LL and ER PPC right now work best if you can pair them with a low heat ballistic like gauss. But they're way too hot for effective boating.

[MadPanda]

There's a lot of newbies in this game so you are probably not the only one who thinks the ERPPC heat is fine.

[De La Fresniere]

It's pretty good for sniping. With two ERPPCs and 20 DHS, you'll be able to fire pretty often. Nothing wrong with using it like that. It's highly specialized, but viable.

For a brawl though, the heat does severely limit how often you can fire your weapons. "Managing heat" is just code for "I gotta wait an extra amount of time between shots". Some weapons configurations will be significantly better than ERPPCs for brawling.

It's good that we can make these decisions, though. People should be able to use loadouts that match their personal preferences. High-heat builds aren't always bad anyway... my Cicada is very high-heat but it generally fares better than my heat-efficient Dragon.

[Hex Pallett]

De La Fresniere, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

For a brawl though, the heat does severely limit how often you can fire your weapons. "Managing heat" is just code for "I gotta wait an extra amount of time between shots". Some weapons configurations will be significantly better than ERPPCs for brawling.

That's the whole point of PPC having so much heat, right? IMO PPC is the LRM equivalent in energy weapons (it actually is, in fact. ERPPC suppress LRMboats hard in the open), it shouldn't perform equally well in brawling. If you want a weapon that's powerful over range as well as good for CQB, you might wanna turn to LL.

[Ryebear]

While I've made two viable ERPPC builds but I have to admit to myself that they are far from the best builds on the chassis.

I have a Muromet that had 2 AC/2s and 2 ERPPCs, entirely viable but significantly less effective that the 3 UAC build or even stock 2 AC/5+AC/10.

Also am running a 3D with 2 ER PPCs and a single AC/10 and TAG just cause, this one is not as effective as 4 LLs would be.

The best success I've had with ER PPCs I wouldnt really call a 'build' but cramming an ER PPC with no other weapons on an ECM Commando was really successful.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. A good mech design philosophy is you have 10 mandatory heatsink with any mech, that means you want to use that built in heat efficiency. Generally speaking you will squeeze in light wait weapons to consume any remaining efficiency you can. With a 7 ton, 3 slot, 13 heat, ER PPC, you already consumed the built in heatsinks and then some forcing you to flesh out your build with missiles or ballistics. Ballistics themselves are HEAVY, they are traditionally the weapon system you build your build around, not an actual afterthough. They dont scale well (MLs minimum investment 1 ton, SRM 4 minimum investment 3 tonnes, AC/2 minimum investment 7 tonnes). Below 65 tonnes you dont have the weight to spare, and above 80 tonnes, you will be limited by crit slots leaving a narrow tonnage window where ER PPCs will be effective (and not even the most effective at that).

[juxstapo]

Naw, I've got no prob with it. Range is awesome awesome and lack of minimum more than makes up for it. I, for one, always swap to ER

[Ursh]

I actually think they're almost better in lights or mediums, because you have the speed to reposition in the sniper role. On heavies and assaults the erppcs are neat at the beginning, but it's difficult to avoid the brawl when it rolls in your direction.

Edited by Ursh, 23 December 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[Wrenchfarm]

The AWE-9M with 3 PPCs or 3 ERPPCs is a very fine ride. Did some dirt with the 3xER build yesterday, very satisfying to blow a Dragon's torso out when he tried to get clever and crowd my face.

That said, the ERPPCs generate a LOT of heat, and you do have to kinda plan around them. Wouldn't mind seeing them get a buff in one of three ways just to make them a little more tempting -
- Less heat generated (BORING)
- More damage dealt (YAY!)
- Even further full effective range

But who knows. If they implement an EMP style effect to the PPC, that might make it worth using all on its own. In the mean time, I'll enjoy getting kills with my lightning guns no matter what the nay-sayers tell me.

[Flapdrol]

problem with erppc is the damage/heat, although the dps is very good, so you only need a few of them.

Edited by Flapdrol, 23 December 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[Hex Pallett]

Someone just made a QUAD PPC build. Imma try it.

[De La Fresniere]

I've been collecting data about PPCs a lot recently.

While they're terrible weapons on their own, boating them allows you to do very high damage to a single section, which is the ideal way to deal damage (as opposed to, say, LB10-X damage, most of which will be wasted on sections that will not contribute to a mech's disabling or defeat).

So on one hand you've got an awful weapon (its heavy and heat-inefficient).
On the other hand you've got boaters one-shotting Mediums and two-shotting Assaults.

They need to be improved, but in a way that makes them accessible to smaller mechs while not making them overpowered for boaters.

Indeed, while ERPPC heat is technically ridiculous, it serves as a powerful deterrent for boating.

I'm starting to think it's the weight that should be reduced.
Big mechs usually don't care about "wasting" tonnage, but they don't have the crit space to install that many DHS.
Smaller mechs care about weight but have more crit space for DHS, so they can better deal with the heat.

I'd leave ERPPC heat where it is (or lower it from 13 to 12), but I'd reduce weight from 7 to 5.

[Stingz]

Helmstif, on 23 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Someone just made a QUAD PPC build. Imma try it.

I've done it, high heat but insta-kills internals, 42% chance x4 for wrecking something.

[TELEFORCE]

I doubt weapon weight would be reduced, as that may break many canon Battletech builds.

They've got excellent range. I ran an Awesome 8Q with 3 ER PPCs and a standard 275 engine. It really smacks LRM boats around, but I don't feel that it has the staying power to supress them simply because they generate too much heat. In my Awesome config, if my position gets rushed and there's no one around to help me, I'm pretty much dead in a brawl since the ER PPCs generate so much heat, I'd shut down and get killed anyway.

I do like the lack of minimum range, but the convergence can get so wonky sometimes, those shots are wasted and shut me down.

I'd like to see ER PPC heat lowered a little bit, enough to require heat management, but make them a lot more manageable, especially at close range.

Edited by TELEFORCE, 23 December 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[torgian]

I think that most of you are missing the point of the PPC and ER PPC: They are meant to be long range weapons. They are not meant for brawling. Yes, they can be used for brawling (and quite efficiently too) but that's why you have to be smart with your builds. My command Cataphract has a PPC, an LBX 10, and three medium lasers (or two, I can't remmeber right now) and I love it. I snipe around with the PPC and when the battle gets in close, I fall back on my other weapons. I can still use the PPC in close as well, and do so effectively. Do I get a lot of kills? No, but I have fun with it.

Yes, PPC boating has its uses, but if you're throwing in weapons that are meant for long range, then be prepared to feel the pain when someone gets in close. Complaining about how you can't use it effectively close range due to the heat is like whining how LRMs can't damage someone within 200 meters. Either change your play style or learn how to deal with the weapon's quirks when things get below 400 meters.

TELEFORCE, on 23 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

I doubt weapon weight would be reduced, as that may break many canon Battletech builds.

They've got excellent range. I ran an Awesome 8Q with 3 ER PPCs and a standard 275 engine. It really smacks LRM boats around, but I don't feel that it has the staying power to supress them simply because they generate too much heat. In my Awesome config, if my position gets rushed and there's no one around to help me, I'm pretty much dead in a brawl since the ER PPCs generate so much heat, I'd shut down and get killed anyway.

I do like the lack of minimum range, but the convergence can get so wonky sometimes, those shots are wasted and shut me down.

I'd like to see ER PPC heat lowered a little bit, enough to require heat management, but make them a lot more manageable, especially at close range.

This is why having good teammates is nice. Doens't happen much though unless you're dropping with a prebuilt team.

[Aidan Malchor]

The heat issue isn't catastrophic with PPC/ERPPC but imo ton for ton and heatwise you get more outta LL/ERLL then you do the PPC weapons. Why fit PPC's when you can fit LL and do alot more sustained fire and more damage overall. The only advantage I see PPC's having is the instant damage to one spot which can be minimize if you have good aim with LL.

[Hex Pallett]

Aidan Malchor, on 23 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

The heat issue isn't catastrophic with PPC/ERPPC but imo ton for ton and heatwise you get more outta LL/ERLL then you do the PPC weapons. Why fit PPC's when you can fit LL and do alot more sustained fire and more damage overall. The only advantage I see PPC's having is the instant damage to one spot which can be minimize if you have good aim with LL.

The duration+recycle time for LL is 1+3.25=4.25 seconds. PPC deals instant damage with a recycle time of 3 seconds. If a build is centered around PPC/ERPPC then I don't see the problem wielding PPCs.

With that said, I gotta admit it is still almost entirely not viable if you wanna carry a PPC/ERPPC like a "secondary" weapon, which you can easily do with LL or ML.

[Ryebear]

The fact that the

torgian, on 23 December 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Yes, PPC boating has its uses, but if you're throwing in weapons that are meant for long range, then be prepared to feel the pain when someone gets in close. Complaining about how you can't use it effectively close range due to the heat is like whining how LRMs can't damage someone within 200 meters. Either change your play style or learn how to deal with the weapon's quirks when things get below 400 meters.

The thing is with energy weapons, DPS is not as important as HPS because if you cant sustain the damage then the rated DPS drops precipitously. Range is less of an issue because in most cases you arent able to bring full range into play unless its a stopping on Caustic Valley or you are playing a really dumb team on River City

LARGE LASER:
Damage: 10.00
Heat: 9.00
DPS: 2.12
HPS: 1.65

ER LARGE LASER:
Damage: 9.00
Heat: 10.00
DPS: 2.12
HPS: 2.35

PPC
Damage: 10.00
Heat: 9.00
DPS: 3.33
HPS: 3.00

ER PPC
Damage 10.00
Heat: 13.00
DPS: 3.33
HPS: 4.33