10 replies to this topic

[Critical Fumble]

For as long as I've been in the game, every other week or so someone gets fed up with "ninja capping"/"base rushes" and starts a thread using some frequency in the "upset" spectrum.

I've seen base rushes all of once or twice in my entire MW:O career. I didn't think the possibility should be removed, I personally didn't and still don't do it; but I refuse to believe "L2P QQ moar, noob" is an appropriate response to ANYTHING. If someone has a complaint about the game, I think it should at least be considered the issue they have may be something that needs fixing, even if conclusions are off kilter.

Our most recent patch almost entirely removed the rewards for early capping. Yet it still happens, as evidenced by what appears to be an INCREASE in complaints about it. The changes fixed nothing. Totally removing rewards for cap victories is an option, but rewards have already been taken down so far that its logically inconsistent to think that more action along that line would change player behavior.

Maybe, just maybe, the problem likes in game play and not in the meta. Can we have a reasonable, constructive, non-insulting discussion about this? Please?

I think the problem is in two halves. The first is

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• Information, or the lack there of.

The innate information the game gives a player is feeble, at best. To keep track of what your buddies are doing you have to effectively be on top of them. You can see where they are using the compass and the blue boxes, but you can only tell facing from LOS and the small area mini map. You can also only tell if they're firing if you're close enough to hear or see, and you can only tell where they're firing if you can see them. You can also tell that someone is targeting an enemy if they R target, but you cannot tell which ones, or how many are trying to kill the one particular mech. To tell what's going on on the other side of the map you could hit "B" and bring up the big map, but it blinds you in the process.


If you want to communicate with your team, you either have to be in a VOIP premade group, or use text chat. Sure, you can use chat to some extent, but when you do text, you have less control over your mech than you would your car if you were fool enough to text on the highway. Simple callouts an map markers with a key combination or pop-up radial menu would do a world of good. You'd still need to text or use voice for more complex information, but it would streamline communication.

ECM, which is cool, but has the effect of wildly decreasing both the amount of information available and shared. Yes, with thermal you can spot them from a mile away - if they're in the open; but without VOIP or quick callouts, you have to type it out, preferably without being sniped. You also drop off the map for your team when you get into an ECM bubble, which they will not notice unless they are looking at your or staring at the big map (see above). Also while in the bubble you cannot indicate your primary target. No lockons and info sharing is not the issue here, but in the bubble there's no way to mark high priority targets and indicate where the enemy is. It also totally negates the BAP (and GXP spotting module?) making obfuscation essentially always the winner in the information war.

These I feel are the more important aspects because no matter what they do to the meta game and what map modes are made available, we will be stuck with the information vs. disinformation mechanic on all of them.

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The second half is more specifically about assault mode itself, although it could apply elsewhere.

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• Map, and specifically cap point mechanics.

Logically, the difficulty to take an in game objective should match how important it is for you, or for the other team to keep. If there were a point on the map that was important, but not of do-or-die significance, it should have relatively equal difficulty to both take or keep. The assault mode bases are of do-or-die significance, but are as difficult to protect as take.


There is generally only one piece of cover at a base, the rig. The terrain around it also usually blocks most long range fire as well. The party that tries to take the cap has to stand in the square, the defenders don't necessarily. Removing the rig or reducing the long range cover would reduce the difficulty of fighting off an attacker or attackers.

The defenders have to do the same thing as the attackers to stall the cap - stand in a tiny red square. If a defender had a larger area to be in to stall, fast mechs in particular would have a better chance of surviving a heroic attempt to stall a cap in time. If the anti-sniping cover stays in the game, having the defense zone large enough so that a mech can stall from somewhere where someone from the capturing team has to expose himself to fire to kill him, that would also put things more in favor of a successful defense.

Additional ways to stall would also help. Stopping or slowing the influence of a caping mech by shooting it is a popular suggestion when counter caps are discussed; but there would need to be a reasonable threshold for it to activate so that the attackers could win in spite of getting frisked by a single mech with small lasers or machine guns. An hostile disrupt effect slowing it is also an option, just please no more near absolute counters, please.

Even though you "own" your base, you are blind at that location unless there is a non-disrupted mech there. If there was a detection device attached to the base that could tell you something, anything about the people on or near it would do wonders when responding to a cap attack.

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Do discuss, or add.

[R0adK1ll]

It is annoying when a team has destroyed most of the opposition only to lose because a single light mech has occupied their base for long enough....or I've been in a couple games where 3 mechs have slipped around the side of the map to capture while the balance of their team is wiped out. In realistic combat the 3 going for capture would be mopped up as an afterthought. Perhaps the easiest fix to this is to activate the capture option after a set number of mechs have been destroyed....not disconnected, destroyed. That would eliminate "ninja" capture in the first three minutes and eliminate the games where both teams "go left" and it's a race to the opposition base.

[MagicHamsta]

Critical Fumble, on 22 December 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Our most recent patch almost entirely removed the rewards for early capping.

Actually it has done the opposite & still rewards early capping. Rather than the monetary reward, it be an amusement reward.
It encourages the capping as a great way to troll the enemy team.
Your team still gets ~35+k for doing nothing while the losing team gets practically nothing.

[Aegis Kleais]

Here's the thing. ASSAULT mode is Kill OR Cap. That's the way it is.

You sound as if you might want a traditional DEATHMATCH mode, and I'm personally fine with that (this mode would only have KILL be a win condition, no alternate method).

But PGI saw fit to provide an alternate method to win in the event that teams just played heavy/assault all the time. If/when a deathmatch mode comes out, this sounds about the mode that many people expect/want.

[Dirus Nigh]

There is a very strait forward solution to assault matches that end in a game winning capture.

Defend your base.

Pretty damn simple. Think of it like hockey, You have a goalie, defenceman, wings and centers.

The goalie(s)
this is one or two mechs that hang back with in 300m of your teams base. Their job is to stay behind untill it is clear that the enemy is not sending a cap rush long the flanks of the team. When it is clear that the opposing team is not going to rush cap the base with fast mechs then the goalie unit can move up to support a weak spot on the the wing or defenceman. It is best to have a fast mech and or can give some long range support. A jenner or dragon is a good mech for this.

Defenceman

This position should be made up of 2-3 mechs that stay 3-400 meters behind the front line. These mechs have two jobs. The first is to intercept any enemy mech that brakes through the front line or gets past the wings and rush the base. Along with the goalie they can destroy any base rushers. The second job is supporting the front line by direct/indirect fire, or plugging a whole in the centers line due to a loss. Mediums and heavies are ideal for this, however an assault can be a great defenceman. Mechs such as the centurion, dragon, and stalker are good for this role.

Wingman

The wingman have many jobs they can perform. They are the fast responders when the defenceman cannot handle the job alone. They are also the scouts. A wingman can flank the units line of march screening the formation from enemy scouts. They look for the main opposing force and intercept any mech that brakes though to the defenceman or goalie. There should be at least 2 wingmen on a team. Most if not all light mechs are ideal for this, as well as mediums. The jenner, raven, cicada are good examples.

Center

The center is your teams main combat line. They are the main force, the element that should be the brunt of an assault or the anvil the opposing team is being driven into by the wingmen. You want 3-4 mechs for the center. If a base rush in in effect they must not turn back for it. If they do they will get cut down. There job is to hold the enemy team until the goalie, wingman and or defenceman take care the problem. Heavy and assault mechs are ideal. Cataphracts, and atlases are good for this role.

When you can be sure that the enemy team is sufficiently beaten, pinned down, or out maneuvered then you can start sending your wingman to attack the enemy base.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 22 December 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Critical Fumble]

R0adK1ll, on 22 December 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

It is annoying when a team has destroyed most of the opposition only to lose because a single light mech has occupied their base for long enough....or I've been in a couple games where 3 mechs have slipped around the side of the map to capture while the balance of their team is wiped out. In realistic combat the 3 going for capture would be mopped up as an afterthought. Perhaps the easiest fix to this is to activate the capture option after a set number of mechs have been destroyed....not disconnected, destroyed. That would eliminate "ninja" capture in the first three minutes and eliminate the games where both teams "go left" and it's a race to the opposition base.

I've thought seen this idea tossed out a lot when this discussion crops up. My issue is that this will force the only legitimate tactic to be the rolling thunder ball of death and ECM. This would be because clustering makes it harder for you to be killed, and not being killed means that your cap is invulnerable. So two problems really, only one legitimate deployment and more fragile mechs have a mechanic that puts them into a sub-griefing position. I'm not sure if this got into my OP or not, but when the netcode and framerate issues get fixed, many mechs will need to be able to pressure map objectives to remain viable.

MagicHamsta, on 22 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Actually it has done the opposite & still rewards early capping. Rather than the monetary reward, it be an amusement reward.
It encourages the capping as a great way to troll the enemy team.
Your team still gets ~35+k for doing nothing while the losing team gets practically nothing.

The "amusement" reward only proves my point. The meta changed, players did not, because the meta was not entirely what motivated people. Their approach could easily evolve into ninjacaping down to a little sliver, stepping off to fight you for a while, and then turning back to finish the cap when things turned south to secure their salvage bonus. Rewards are actually base 25k right now, and if not a single point of damage is dealt, that's what everyone gets.

Dirus Nigh, on 22 December 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Spoiler

There is a very strait forward solution to assault matches that end in a game winning capture.
Defend your base.
Pretty damn simple. Think of it like hockey, You have a goalie, defenceman, wings and centers.
The goalie(s)
this is one or two mechs that hang back with in 300m of your teams base. Their job is to stay behind untill it is clear that the enemy is not sending a cap rush long the flanks of the team. When it is clear that the opposing team is not going to rush cap the base with fast mechs then the goalie unit can move up to support a weak spot on the the wing or defenceman. It is best to have a fast mech and or can give some long range support. A jenner or dragon is a good mech for this.
Defenceman
This position should be made up of 2-3 mechs that stay 3-400 meters behind the front line. These mechs have two jobs. The first is to intercept any enemy mech that brakes through the front line or gets past the wings and rush the base. Along with the goalie they can destroy any base rushers. The second job is supporting the front line by direct/indirect fire, or plugging a whole in the centers line due to a loss. Mediums and heavies are ideal for this, however an assault can be a great defenceman. Mechs such as the centurion, dragon, and stalker are good for this role.
Wingman
The wingman have many jobs they can perform. They are the fast responders when the defenceman cannot handle the job alone. They are also the scouts. A wingman can flank the units line of march screening the formation from enemy scouts. They look for the main opposing force and intercept any mech that brakes though to the defenceman or goalie. There should be at least 2 wingmen on a team. Most if not all light mechs are ideal for this, as well as mediums. The jenner, raven, cicada are good examples.
Center
The center is your teams main combat line. They are the main force, the element that should be the brunt of an assault or the anvil the opposing team is being driven into by the wingmen. You want 3-4 mechs for the center. If a base rush in in effect they must not turn back for it. If they do they will get cut down. There job is to hold the enemy team until the goalie, wingman and or defenceman take care the problem. Heavy and assault mechs are ideal. Cataphracts, and atlases are good for this role.
When you can be sure that the enemy team is sufficiently beaten, pinned down, or out maneuvered then you can start sending your wingman to attack the enemy base.

It looks like we have essentially the same view on how assault mode tactics should be. But does the current UI support this level of play in either PUGs, or in any game settings involving multiple lances dropping together without voice outside their own lance?

[Rivy]

I'd add permanent detection to the cap area, and make it so that you need to shoot the base from inside the area to capture it: give it X armor points and when it's destroyed you win. That way light mechs destroy bases slowly, but they arrive quickly, and assaults can destroy them faster, but take a long time to get there.
It would also make "capturing" more interesting, as you can't just stand in the area shooting at the building if there's an enemy trying to stop you because you'll waste ammo and/or generate heat while not fighting back.

[Critical Fumble]

Rivy, on 23 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

I'd add permanent detection to the cap area, and make it so that you need to shoot the base from inside the area to capture it: give it X armor points and when it's destroyed you win. That way light mechs destroy bases slowly, but they arrive quickly, and assaults can destroy them faster, but take a long time to get there.
It would also make "capturing" more interesting, as you can't just stand in the area shooting at the building if there's an enemy trying to stop you because you'll waste ammo and/or generate heat while not fighting back.

That's a thought, but it would put you wouldn't be able to cap with PPCs or LRMs. It would also further discourage mechs with less maximum firepower. What capping looks like to me is hacking, maybe it could force the capping mech to look at the rig and activate something that puts it in a state somewhere between ECM disrupted and shut down?

[R0adK1ll]

So maybe the fix is not that you actually have to shoot the base but the firepower rating of your mech dictates how fast the capture occurs. That way 3-4 lights equate to a lumbering assault.

[Critical Fumble]

R0adK1ll, on 23 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

So maybe the fix is not that you actually have to shoot the base but the firepower rating of your mech dictates how fast the capture occurs. That way 3-4 lights equate to a lumbering assault.

Same problem as before, though. Not all mechs of similar weight have similar firepower potential. For instance the CDA-3C, which has one energy hardpoint and can only carry one good ballistic weapon without being suicidal. There are other mechs that get shafted like that for various reasons, and not just speed.

I notice that most people are commenting on the map mechanics but not the information aspects. That's cool though.

[Xandralkus]

Anytime you have a large number of players doing a single thing, it tends to get incredibly OP. Four mechs focus-firing at you? You may as well be chewing on your self-destruct button. Eight-man baserush? Your only counter is to have your entire team on defense.

The solution is to design gameplay objectives that absolutely require a team to split up and accomplish multiple goals simultaneously. Something such as multiple recapturable bases spread across the map would require teams to split up for maximum firepower distribution.

...Oh wait, they call that conquest.

Okay, okay, I'll give this an honest try. Fix Assault mode without fundamentally changing it into a slightly different version of conquest...

Make Assault a 3 vs 3 game. The enemy will almost always have time to retaliate against an attempted base capture.

Additionally, put another square around the base, roughly twice the size of the current capture square. In order to capture an enemy base, you must stand within the inner capture square. If an enemy defender comes into the outer capture square, they stop the capture process. This would put attackers at a tangible disadvantage. While no enemies are in the outer capture square, standing in the inner square (as a friendly) would recapture your own base and undo the enemy capture.