114 replies to this topic

[Joe Mallad]

Aurien Titus, on 23 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

I've never seen PGI say that Clan's would be playable. The community has just always assumed they'd be playable.

they may not be playable right away and may come in out of nowhere as the big bad buggy man. But they will be playable shortly after. Why else would the DEVS say they would love to sell us a Timberwolf at some point? If he clans are never going to be playable, the DEVS would not even toy with us about us being able to buy Clan mech at some point.

[El Bandito]

Without repair fees, Clan tech will have clear advantage over IS tech. I would just deck my Atlas with Clan version of AC or Gauss or PPC or better yet, Clan LRMs.

Expensive repair fee can balance it out.

[Joe Mallad]

El Bandito, on 23 December 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Without repair fees, Clan tech will have clear advantage over IS tech. I would just deck my Atlas with Clan version of AC or Gauss or PPC or better yet, Clan LRMs.

Expensive repair fee can balance it out.

to bad your Atlas won't fit Clan tech. The Atlas is not an omni-mech and or does not have Clan computer systems in it to allow for Clan tech. At least not for a few years until Clan tech starts to become more common and freely given, traded, reverse engineered to then be put on/in Inner Sphere mech. I don't see it happening right away when the Clans invade so don't get your hopes up.

[Merky Merc]

Yoseful Mallad, on 23 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

to bad your Atlas won't fit Clan tech. The Atlas is not an omni-mech and or does not have Clan computer systems in it to allow for Clan tech. At least not for a few years until Clan tech starts to become more common and freely given, traded, reverse engineered to then be put on/in Inner Sphere mech. I don't see it happening right away when the Clans invade so don't get your hopes up.

Too bad we can mix and match weapons as is given the hardpoint system. Your point seems wasted given the current system.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

lol The clan mechs will most likely cost around 15 - 30 million c-bills. They will be the most expensive mechs and probly cost alot to modify. MC purchases would be drasticly high. Maybe 50 bucks a Clan mech.

[herosson]

How in the hell is this game going to last to the clans?

[Zaptruder]

Why are you all making this *sooo* complicated?

Clan tech in clan mechs only, IS tech in IS mechs only.

Clan mechs take 2 mech slots in game.

So 1 clan mech & 6 IS mechs VS 8 IS mechs.

3 clan mech & 2 IS mechs VS 8 IS mechs.

Clan mechs are about twice as good; much more maneuverable, much higher fire power. Only thing they don't have is double armor (but they can frequently max armor on any given chassis).

It creates an interesting scenario; do you want better concentration of power in a mech, or would you prefer more angles of attack and redundancy?

Other than a battle value system, everything else is too forced, artificial and community breaking. Maybe the only other thing you need to do is have players 'earn' the right to clan tech/clan mechs. Although I'm not entirely sure how one would accomplish this.

[Merky Merc]

Zaptruder, on 23 December 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Why are you all making this *sooo* complicated?

Somewhat ironic given your proposed system.

[Zaptruder]

Merky Merc, on 24 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Somewhat ironic given your proposed system.

2 IS mechs vs 1 Clan mech.

Is pretty simple.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

I dont get why people fuss over clan technology when they only have small advantages that equal all there disadvantages. sure clan engines are lighter, but can only survive loosing 1 torso. Sure there weapons are faster firing and lighter, but run alot hotter.

It just seems Innerspehere mechs can take more punishment than clan mechs. Then the clan mechs can hold more firepower but cant take to many hits.

[Helbourne]

This game has a very long way to go, but that is to be expected. I read these threads and all people talk about is balance balance balance. War is not a zero sum game. What kinda of war is this going to turn out to be? You are supposed to look for your enemies weak points and totally destroy them. Gee look House xyz has only a light lance guarding that weapons depot, lets crush them with heavy lance we have here. If you end up with Clan = IS then there is no point in putting them in to the game.

Your 'old' IS mechs will have a place. I would imagine it would depend on what planet your on. Do you have a secure supply chain. Can you get parts to your Clan mech? Heck maybe you have gone through a rough battle and all you have parts for are your Atlas and your Jenners.

I am waiting to see how they do community warfare.

[Merky Merc]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

2 IS mechs vs 1 Clan mech.

Is pretty simple.

And then you have an Atlas dressed to the nines in clan weaponry. Or 4v8? Lol Idc what mechs you have they're not Iwin buttons.

[Zaptruder]

Merky Merc, on 24 December 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

And then you have an Atlas dressed to the nines in clan weaponry. Or 4v8? Lol Idc what mechs you have they're not Iwin buttons.

Or you simply not mix clan and IS tech. Simple right? You're really just trying to make this more difficult than it needs to be.

[Ozric]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

2 IS mechs vs 1 Clan mech.

Is pretty simple.

Lets put this another way. 2 players in light mechs vs 1 player in an assault, who wins? I would say the 2 light mechs have the advantage. 2 brains vs 1 brain. So then what if they are 2 IS players in light mechs, and 1 Claner in an assault? How powerful would the clan mech have to be in order to take the 2v1 advantage then? And if they were that powerful, who in their right mind would pilot sub-par IS mechs?

The uneven teams thing works on paper, with dice and RNG, but in an FPS game it's just not a sustainable balancing factor.

[idle crow]

We already have units beating people with 1 lance vs 2 lance in pure IS tech. May need to make it 3 lances against 1 star.

[Zaptruder]

Ozric, on 24 December 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Lets put this another way. 2 players in light mechs vs 1 player in an assault, who wins? I would say the 2 light mechs have the advantage. 2 brains vs 1 brain. So then what if they are 2 IS players in light mechs, and 1 Claner in an assault? How powerful would the clan mech have to be in order to take the 2v1 advantage then? And if they were that powerful, who in their right mind would pilot sub-par IS mechs?

The uneven teams thing works on paper, with dice and RNG, but in an FPS game it's just not a sustainable balancing factor.

As far as pugs go, the match making system attempts to account for weight classes when putting teams together. Keep that as a factor in balancing.

Without uneven teams, the only other options are

1. Ignore clan/IS tech imbalance - result is IS tech becomes redundant, and pay to win dichotomy is exacerbated (i.e. it takes much longer to earn a viable mech without paying for it).

2. Nerf clan tech - Going against the grain of the fiction and TT rules, ******* off a large portion of their fan and playerbase, marginalizing the unique and interesting imbalance inherent to the BTech property.

3. Economic/XP penalties for playing clan mechs - creates another pay to win problem; where unless you're running premium accounts, it's not feasible to play clans mechs AND OR devalues clan mechs to the point where they're not practically viable, except for end game players (players that have so much money that they don't care about Cbill costs).


The uneven (number of players on each) teams system can be calibrated after some playtesting. 2 for 1 is a pretty easy way to start, and if necessary, they can fine tune it with an update battle value system and some more intelligent match making software. It also does its best to preserve the unique flavour and rules of the universe and TT game.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Uneven teams is not the answer, this is not a story book.

Bad Clan Team vs Bad IS Team = Clan Team Likely to win due to technology advantage

Mediocre Clan Team vs Mediocre IS Team = IS team wins by numbers.

Good Clan Team vs Good IS Team = IS team wins by numbers

What needs to happen is that each weapon tech tree has its niche's.

Lets take MW4 as an example,
ERL = ISLL - In a number of cases the ISLL was better because it ran much cooler and could be used as a pressure mechanic making ERL based teams overheat.

Light Gauss Rifle - Great extended range weapon, that gave some good IS units a great advantage over clan teams because of its range (hint we need long range maps to support this)

Heavy Gauss Rifle - Absolute killer medium - short range.

Sadly these are all time scale dependant aspects, but that's part of the universe, eventually the IS starts to catch up.

[Zaptruder]

DV McKenna, on 24 December 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Uneven teams is not the answer, this is not a story book.

Bad Clan Team vs Bad IS Team = Clan Team Likely to win due to technology advantage

Mediocre Clan Team vs Mediocre IS Team = IS team wins by numbers.

Good Clan Team vs Good IS Team = IS team wins by numbers

Your assertions are backed up by nothing.

[WildeKarde]

Higher numbers/tonnage might have worked in TT as you had variable on the dice such as pilot skill, targetting comps, etc. When you are able to shoot at specific locations on a mech with no penalty in MWO then it won't work.

Can you imagine two brawling stalkers taking on a single daishi? 8 SRM's 6's rip it aparty while it struggles with heat management.

To balance it you need to have a system that takes in to account they are better than the IS equipment but not so much better to be able to take on multiple mechs in MWO. They are going to run into the same issues that people post on now. Their streaks / LRM's don't work against ECM, twin ac20 or gauss mechs hitting the same location, light mechs can be difficult to hit at times, a lot of them will come with xl engines at standard.

[Bluescuba]

Thorn Hallis, on 23 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Even teams, pure tech, Clantech as powerful as in TT, make Omni'Mechs non customizable but give out each variant for free once the prime variant is bought (or mastered). And if anyone says "But customization is the whole idea of Omni'Mechs" I'll answer "You don't have the rank to customize your 'Mech".

LOL your joking right... omni mechs by definition are fully customisable and rank has nothing to do with it!

Quaff?

However clanners fight differently to IS. So lets talk zellbrigen... clanner can only fight a single mech at a time, unless they are fired upon by another enemy... accordingly there should be the ability to focus fire that a lot of players currently use. So how to instigate this well once a clan mech locks a target and hits it the first time they cannot swap targets (unless attacked and then they can swap between their first target and the enemy who attacked them) other clan mechs cannot lock on to a target already locked by a clan mech unless it has attacked another clan mech. Clan players lose exp and c-bills at the same rate as a tk if they engage ootside of zillbrigen.