373 replies to this topic

[Lycan]

keith, on 26 December 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

pls wait while i turn my mech 60 degrees to get into a firing arc. next let me get out a dice to see if my hand will press the mouse to hit u in the head. an online FPS game should not be balanced towards a broad game. too many different factors play into it, lag and playerskill are the main ones

And this right here is why we've got the game we do.

Since it's a FPS, certain types of players cannot accept the fact that they might not actually hit where the reticle of their weapon is pointing.

And if this was the typical shooter, I could respect that.

Except it's not. The reticle that they see doesn't represent where THEY'RE pointing, it represents where they want their weapons to hit. It's then up to the 'Mechs battle computer to calculate all the relevant data and then have the weapon mounts drive said weapons to the appropriate angles/etc and then fire.

As much as they try and use the "let me break out my dice" comment to make light of playing in a video game, they don't seem to understand that the weapons they're firing, and the armor that is being used to shield the mechs they're fire at, was balanced around those dice rolls that they poke fun at.

It's why every single MW title to-date has to have some kind of gimmick and/or mechanic in place to deal with pin-point weapons fire that mouse aiming allows.

People complain about "boats" but the ones that do don't seem to be the ones that have played the TT game. There it didn't matter if you were packing 15 Med Lasers. Why?

Well, for one, all those laser wouldn't hit the same place. At most, maybe 2-3 would. And the armor of most Medium mechs on up would be able to deal with the salvo. (They might not be in good shape but they were still in decent enough shape to return fire).

For two, firing all those lasers would do way more than just shut you down. It would cook your pilot or at the very least, knock him the frak out due to heat stroke. If you managed to avoid shutdown (and you probably could only do that using the expanded heat table) you would be limping along at a fraction of the speed you were before hand due to the high levels of heat.

In MWO, you over heat and shut down. ::finger twirl:: Big frakin, deal.

You could also do things that you can't do in any of the Video games. And that would be the ability to fire at multiple targets. There were also rear firing weapons to discourage those pesky Jenners. (Locusts in my day . . . )

Anyway, by trying to cater to the "we don't want a RNG to determine where we hit!!!" crowd. Despite the fact that this is probably the one and only game where it actually makes sense due to how the weapons are fired. By throwing out the "to-hit" chart and range mods, they broke the foundation of the game. And as such, everything they try and build using the foundation is fundamentally broken.

[Void Angel]

Pht, on 26 December 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

PS: One need NOT make all the weapons fire every ten seconds. If you want to control refire rates and keep the balance, tweak heat values on the weapons. It's the heat output that controls refire rates for every weapon in the TT. Fire faster than every 10, add heat - slower, less heat.

So the

Ryolacap, on 26 December 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Not to mention this games weapon balance favors smaller weapons and alpha strikes who uses the smaller weapons and can use alpha strike hit and run tactics, good time to be a light

Yes! Because Gausscats are not a thing, and the Stalker has no firepower at all.

The only reason lights are too powerful right now, in general, is the lag shields -which are getting fixed.

[GaussDragon]

Nauht, on 26 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I was a big supporter for sticking to TT in the early days but realise now that sticking to it strictly doesn't work for a FPS game.

I never thought I'd be reading a sentence such as this. Ever.

[Void Angel]

Lycan, on 26 December 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

And this right here is why we've got the game we do.

Since it's a FPS, certain types of players cannot accept the fact that they might not actually hit where the reticle of their weapon is pointing.

And if this was the typical shooter, I could respect that.

Except it's not.  The reticle that they see doesn't represent where THEY'RE pointing, it represents where they want their weapons to hit.  It's then up to the 'Mechs battle computer to calculate all the relevant data and then have the weapon mounts drive said weapons to the appropriate angles/etc and then fire.

As much as they try and use the "let me break out my dice" comment to make light of playing in a video game, they don't seem to understand that the weapons they're firing, and the armor that is being used to shield the mechs they're fire at, was balanced around those dice rolls that they poke fun at.

It's why every single MW title to-date has to have some kind of gimmick and/or mechanic in place to deal with pin-point weapons fire that mouse aiming allows.

People complain about "boats" but the ones that do don't seem to be the ones that have played the TT game.  There it didn't matter if you were packing 15 Med Lasers.  Why?

Well, for one, all those laser wouldn't hit the same place.  At most, maybe 2-3 would.  And the armor of most Medium mechs on up would be able to deal with the salvo. (They might not be in good shape but they were still in decent enough shape to return fire).

For two, firing all those lasers would do way more than just shut you down.  It would cook your pilot or at the very least, knock him the frak out due to heat stroke.  If you managed to avoid shutdown (and you probably could only do that using the expanded heat table) you would be limping along at a fraction of the speed you were before hand due to the high levels of heat.

In MWO, you over heat and shut down. ::finger twirl:: Big frakin, deal.

You could also do things that you can't do in any of the Video games. And that would be the ability to fire at multiple targets.  There were also rear firing weapons to discourage those pesky Jenners. (Locusts in my day . . . )

Anyway, by trying to cater to the "we don't want a RNG to determine where we hit!!!" crowd. Despite the fact that this is probably the one and only game where it actually makes sense due to how the weapons are fired.  By throwing out the "to-hit" chart and range mods, they broke the foundation of the game. And as such, everything they try and build using the foundation is fundamentally broken.

What you are asking for is more properly termed "MechCommander Online." Your argument hinges on made-up nonsense to cover the fact that this isn't the game you want. All the... verbiage... about battle computers and et cetera is just silly; it doesn't take a lot of computer enhancement to keep a laser on a slow-moving target - obviously the computer is controlling the specific aiming, but the pilot is telling the computer where to shoot. This game is using the same general style that's been the standard since Mechwarrior 3 - and it's a working interface. In point of fact, I have blown myself up by firing lasers and overheating: I hit that override key one time too many, and made a last-ditch attempt to kill my target before I died. But that's not your real issue. Your real complaint is that you're not getting a dressed-up, spiffy-looking, RTS version of MegaMek. Go ask someone to make that game, if you don't want to play this one. Demanding that this game be turned into multiplayer MechCommander is not reasonable.

These are not the Battledroids you're looking for. Move along...

Edited by Void Angel, 26 December 2012 - 11:08 PM.

[Ryvucz]

This may interest those of you who love Table Top.

http://mwtactics.com/

[Void Angel]

Holy crap! There it is! Go, GO, GOOOOOOOO!

[Lycan]

Void Angel, on 26 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

These are not the Battledroids you're looking for. Move along...

I have moved along.

I moved along long before you graced these forums, and the game, with your presence.

I do still stop by to try and give an opinion on things.

Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

::shrug:: No skin of my nose either way.

Ryvucz, on 26 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

This may interest those of you who love Table Top.

http://mwtactics.com/

Void Angel, on 26 December 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Holy crap! There it is! Go, GO, GOOOOOOOO!

Already gone and just waiting for the game to go into Open Beta.

It is more of the type of Battletech/Mechwarrior game that I've been looking for.

It's not going to stop me from stopping in here from time to time to give my opinion though.

Edited by Lycan, 26 December 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[Ryolacap]

Void Angel, on 26 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

So the

Yes! Because Gausscats are not a thing, and the Stalker has no firepower at all.

The only reason lights are too powerful right now, in general, is the lag shields -which are getting fixed.

Of course they have firepower, but at a much higher cost....

Gauss has a .25 per ton DPS with 4 DPS and is a lead target hit chance

Med Pulse laser has a 1 per ton DPS with a 2 DPS

15 ton weapon 15 dmg
6X 2 ton weapon (12 tons) 36 dmg

Large heavy weapons are the lead to hit weapons
Smaller weapons are the high dmg instant hit weapons

Sorry but yes the game favors smaller weapons and faster mechs

not even going to get into SRMs

The only valid comment is lag shield but we will have to wait and see on that one

Edited by Ryolacap, 26 December 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[DarkBazerker]

What is this tabletop you speak of?

[Ryolacap]

Table Top is here, by Catalyst Games, I am sure many are kidding, but just in case dont want to leave anyone hanging.

http://bg.battletech.com/

[Helbourne]

Xavier Wulf, on 26 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I understand why die-hard fans want this to be the table top game, but this is not an exact replica of the TT. If you want to play the table top so badly, go play it.

The idea of using the exact table top rules and values is absurd and impractical. This game would never be balanced if it were to follow those rules to the letter.

I do and have played since the TT first came out. I would expect them to use TT rules as a starting point, and then make proper adjustments to make it work online in real time. Streaks for example, they need to hit or they do not fire. That is the point of them. You take streak missles so you do not have to carry as much ammo. I don't expect them all to hit the same location. Perhaps they should be treated more like lasers in real time. Perhaps you have to move the target retical over the enemy mech, click your button to fire, if it could register a lock on, they fire and hit. Sure you could hide behind cover really fast or have AMS shoot down some but not all of the missles.

I would say use the TT as a guide and base values, adjust as needed to make it work.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Helbourne, on 27 December 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

I do and have played since the TT first came out. I would expect them to use TT rules as a starting point, and then make proper adjustments to make it work online in real time. Streaks for example, they need to hit or they do not fire. That is the point of them. You take streak missles so you do not have to carry as much ammo. I don't expect them all to hit the same location. Perhaps they should be treated more like lasers in real time. Perhaps you have to move the target retical over the enemy mech, click your button to fire, if it could register a lock on, they fire and hit. Sure you could hide behind cover really fast or have AMS shoot down some but not all of the missles.

I would say use the TT as a guide and base values, adjust as needed to make it work.

thats what they keep telling us they are doing already

[Sephlock]

A few things:

1: My computer is on a table, so this technically is a table top game regardless of any changes they make.

2: Although it would cause a massive pewter apocalypse as figurine sales would drop like a rock, they should just release a perfect 1 to 1 rendition of the tabletop game for PCs. Sure, they'll go bankrupt, but then they can release the source code and we can play Battletech online for free forevermore!

[Budor]

DHS whine crowd inc.

[jakucha]

They can't balance towards tabletop without weapons firing much more slowly, and there being less armor. Can't balance towards the tabletop without making it completely like the table top minus turn based. They tried the less armor thing early on and changed it so they're clearly not going to make these drastic changes at this point.

[Chunkylad]

I am for making it close to TT, but you will never be close since this is real time combat vs turn based. Plus dice rolls take some of the fun out the combat (*cough* Morrowind *cough*) <- still an amazing game

Edited by Chunkylad, 27 December 2012 - 02:08 AM.

[Ryolacap]

jakucha, on 27 December 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

They can't balance towards tabletop without weapons firing much more slowly, and there being less armor. Can't balance towards the tabletop without making it completely like the table top minus turn based. They tried the less armor thing early on and changed it so they're clearly not going to make these drastic changes at this point.

Actually you could to some extent, you make all weapons fire rate very similar with heat being the ultimate factor

[Buck Cake]

Ryvucz, on 26 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

This may interest those of you who love Table Top.

http://mwtactics.com/

Only one person out of ten is actually allowed to play, thanks to the way they handle their beta.
If your opponent goes AFK his turn lasts forever.
Most players avoid their forum because of political correctness gone mad.
There is no campaign mode.
There is no Unseen/Reseen, not even the Dougram ones.
Their art direction is dubious to say at least.

[Red squirrel]

Besides MGs and Flam-ers the weapons are okay as they are.
Edit: (Maybe pulse laser could need some love)
But the electronic warfare should definitely be more alinged with TT rules.

Edited by Red squirrel, 27 December 2012 - 03:31 AM.

[Ryolacap]

Red squirrel, on 27 December 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Besides MGs and Flam-ers the weapons are okay as they are.
Edit: (Maybe pulse laser could need some love)
But the electronic warfare should definitely be more alinged with TT rules.

So not ok as they are, personally I think balistics need love. They are super heavy ammo dependent and average 4DPS, WHAT!?!?!