Indoorsman, on 12 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:
You reiterate that the mech does the aiming and not the mechwarrior. That does not prove that the to-hit tables for TT are reflecting the mechs' ability to aim, and not the capability of the average pilot or the time delay and possibility of miscommunication between the commander and mechwarrior in TT.
Well, first of all, there is no rule for a player to modify the results on the normal and advanced hit-location tables used for resolving weapons fire.
Also, the hit-location mechanic is used for resolving attacks made with cluster rounds - a pilot cannot control where his cluster rounds will actually hit his target - the application of randomized cluster hits can't be a representation of MW skill ... cluster rounds are *designed* to randomly spread in a mostly uncontrollable manner. All you can do is direct the "cone" - not pick what gets hit inside of that cone.
"LB-X Weapons: If an LB-X weapon is fired as a cluster weapon (using cluster munitions, rather than acting as a direct-fire ballistic weapon and using standard munitions), once the actual Damage Value that struck the target is determined, the controlling player makes a different hit location roll for each 1-point Damage Value grouping."
Ditto on missile type attacks; after it's determined if any of them can hit (to hit), it's determined how many of them hit the target (that's the cluster table) you than apply the damage via the use of the hit-location table.
"Missile Weapons: Once the Damage Value that actually struck the target is determined, the division of damage into Damage Value groupings and their assignment to the target depend on weapon type, as described under Weapons and Equipment, p. 113."
Furthermore, as a generic game mechanic, the hit-location represents damage that is applied in a manner that the MechWarrior has no control over... for example:
" For every hex that a ’Mech skids, it suffers damage equal to one-half its normal falling damage, rounded up; after the skid has ended, add up all damage, then apply it in 5-point groups (see Falling, p. 68). Use the column of the ’Mech Hit Location Table determined by the fall (see p. 119 in Combat) to determine the location of this damage."
A fall in the TT only happens when the MechWarrior has *lost control of his 'Mech.*
More:
"Prohibited Terrain: If a unit skids into prohibited terrain—such as a hover vehicle sideslipping into woods or a wheeled vehicle skidding into rough—the unit takes 1 point of damage for every 5 tons it weighs (round fractions up). Group the resulting damage into 5-point groupings, then roll once for each grouping on the appropriate Hit Location Table (always use the Front/Rear column). "
Skids, again, represent when the MechWarrior has lost control of his 'Mech.
And another point: Though the basic mechanic of the hit-location table doesn't change; there are a
multitude of them, for many different situations - and with a single lone exception, they don't represent MechWarrior skill... most of the time they represent somewhat unpredictable damage that happens. It would seem odd that they would go to the trouble of adding all of these other hit-location tables and explaining exactly what they're for and what they represent... and yet they wouldn't have done so with the normal and advanced hit-location tables for resolving weapons damage. If they had meant them as a representation of MechWarrior skill, you would expect them to follow their habits and indicate that they represented MW skill (in any way at all, partial or otherwise).
The lone exception I just mentioned is this:
"CALLED SHOTS
A called shot is similar to an aimed shot, though less narrowly targeted. An aimed shot is an attack against a specific hit location and can only be made against an immobile target. An attack “aimed” more generally,
representing the pilot’s skill at directing his attack against a desired general area, is a called shot. Called shots can be made against active, mobile targets. Any attack can be a called shot. The player must announce the type of called shot—high, low, right or left—when the attack is declared. All called shots must be made with an additional +3 to-hit modifier. If the attack hits, the hit may be resolved on a different table than the one that would normally be used."
*This* is the only rule anywhere that represents the skill of the MechWarrior in converging his weapons fire onto a desired part of his target - and notice, not only does it make it harder for your 'Mech to hit the target (+3), it also doesn't give you a way to try and get your weapons fire to all hit a single location - or for that matter, it doesn't give the MechWarrior a way to get more shots to hit the LT/CT/RT, either. It only allows for left/right/high/low - there is no called shot "center" or "torso."
... and because I expect you to want to know:
"Aimed Shots: Players may make aimed shots against units that are
shut down or
whose warrior is unconscious, using any weapons other than missile launchers and LB-X autocannon firing cluster munitions. When firing on an immobile ’Mech, the attacking player can make an aimed shot by naming a target location. Against any hit location except the head, the player makes the to-hit roll using the standard –4 to-hit modifier for firing at an immobile target. If the attack is successful, the player rolls again. On a result of 6, 7 or 8, his shot hits the designated location. For any other result, the player rolls normally on the ’Mech Hit Location Table. (This roll may still result in the attack striking the desired location.)
If the attacker is taking an aimed shot at the target ’Mech’s head, modify the to-hit number by +3 rather than the normal –4. If the shot hits, the player rolls 2D6. On a result of 6, 7 or 8, the shot hits the head. For any other result, roll normally on the ’Mech Hit Location Table. Players cannot use the Aimed Shots rule to make physical attacks.
Targeting Computer: A warrior can use a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an active target (see Targeting Computer, p. 143). If using a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an immobile target, the player adds a –1 modifier (representing the targeting computer) to the –4 immobile target modifier. (All other rules remain the same.)"
This is literally the ONLY time a 'MechWarrior is able to target a single section of a target and have a halfway decent chance of getting multiple weapons to hit it... 16.67% or 1 out of 6, those are your chances of rolling a 6 or higher on 2D6 -
"Immobile Target: A unit with an unconscious pilot is an immobile target, and may be targeted by aimed shots as described on page 110."
- and it is only possible against a very specific class of targets, classified as "immobile," and the MechWarrior's Gunnery skill roll in NO WAY affects the "do multiple weapons hit the targeted section" roll - the first roll at is a simple hit/no hit roll - it doesn't tell you where you've hit.
Speaking of the gunnery skill rolls:
"SKILLS
Though warriors possess different skills, for purposes of Classic BattleTech they use only two skills in combat: Piloting/Driving and Gunnery. Skills have a rating; the lower the skill rating, the better the warrior is at the skill.
...
Gunnery Skill helps determine how easy or difficult it is for the warrior to make a successful shot using his unit’s weapons."
Furthermore, we already know for a fact that it's the 'Mech that does the required convergence calculations and the physical aiming of the weapons - I already quoted that source a few pages back; and the Novels and the rest of the lore bear this out, so we know there must be some level of combat capability that the 'Mechs possess. For instance, the Marauder is routinely mentioned as a "deadly design" compared to most other 'Mechs - and there is even a game mechanic for expressing these things "Quirks" (long a house rule, now official).
The aforementioned Marauder might use something like:
"Improved Targeting (3, 4 or 5 Points)
The unit has advanced targeting capabilities in one range bracket. The quirk can be applied up to three times, but can be taken only once per range bracket (the cost of the quirk equals how many range brackets it has been applied to; i.e. 1 range bracket equals 2 points, 2 range brackets equals 3 points and if applied to all 3 range brackets then 4 points). All ranged attack to-hit target numbers at the selected range bracket receive a –1 modifier. A unit with this quirk cannot take Improved Targeting for the Extreme range bracket, nor can this quirk be combined with Variable Range Targeting."
Quote
How is it an invalid standard to take some things from TT and not others?
I didn't post that "it is an invalid standard to take some things from TT and not others," or anything that had that meaning but in different words.
Quote
I think it's an invalid standard to compare an unfinished computer game to a finished board game which has been refined over almost 30 years now. Reminds me of your sentiment that if they don't revert to TT values they would have to endlessly tweak this game. I'm sure TT has been tweaked many times.
I'm not comparing them as if MWO was finished - I'm *only* comparing MWO's basic,
foundational, combat mechanics to the basic, foundational, combat mechanics of the TT system... and MWO's very basics are currently unchanging, and there's been no mention of even the possibility of their being changed for at least the last six months. Furthermore, I've only done so in the context of what is, by definition, required to make a game a "MechWarrior" video game.
It is an apples to apples comparison.
No, TT hasn't been tweaked at nearly the rate that MWO is. In fact, once the weapons are into the system, they virtually never change. Furthermore, the basic combat system is well over 90+ % intact from the very first version. The *only* meaningful difference I know of is that they did away with the reaction phase... and that was done a LONG time ago. Most of what you see that wasn't present in the past is
expansion.
It's entirely possible to pick up a first-edition copy of "battledroids" and use most of the new stuff in the game, with very little modification.
Quote
You say this game isn't simulating what it's like to pilot a mech from the BTU universe, and the way to do that is by making it like TT. So in otherwords this game should simulate what it's like to pilot a mech from a game simulating what it's like to command a unit of mechs, mechception!
The board game came before the novels and the other source material and the board game has controlled the 'Mech's combat behavior and such in the said source and novels from the very beginning.
Quote
I think they are doing the right thing, take the weapons values which directly relate to the mechs and ignore the to-hit values which are directly related to the commander aspect. To hit values represent that you are not piloting the mech or aiming the mech aiming the guns.
----
Since you are so adamant about the fact that the mech is aiming and not the mechwarrior, then in TT you are telling the person telling the mech to tell the mech to aim the guns. Using tables which are intended to reflect that much detachment from the actual guns would not be a good idea.
No, they aren't - they're taking only a single part of a combat system - the weapons values - that are and were intrinsically designed to work with to-hit modifiers and hit-location tables - and trying to make them work in a combat system that doesn't use a to-hit OR, most importantly, the hit-location tables... and worse, the combat system they're putting these numbers into routinely allows for multiples of these weapons to hit a single section of a mobile target 'Mech. The TT armor values were never intended to absorb that kind of damage, so the TT armor numbers had to get tossed out of the window - but the TT weapons damage values WERE designed to work against the TT armor values, - meaing they HAVE to be tweaked - but because they're using an intrinsically incoherent combat system (not designed as a coherent entity - it is instead a "mashup") they can't predict all of the gameplay results - meaning further tweaking ... and further unpredicted results ... meaning further tweaking ... until at some point down the road, if they keep tweaking, the game looks NOTHING like it started out as, and nothing like the parent game OR lore.
The to-hit values represent more than just what you're saying they do.
They represent 3 major groups -
MechWarrior gunnery skill - which I've already repeatedly said should be, by definition, left out of a MW video game - this is what you've just mentioned...
Accuracy of a given weapon (pulse lasers apply a -2 modifier to the final to-hut number, clan heavy lasers apply +1, most weapons apply no modifier)
How conditions affect your 'Mech's ability to hit what you're indicating with the reticule - I can list a few out, if you're curious. There are a LOT of these.
It is the last two of these to-hit mechanics/modifiers that I'm saying should be used, not the first one, that actually *does* represent MechWarrior skill.
----
Quote
No Mechwarrior game has met your standards apparently, ...
Most of the past games with the name have been fun - I spent nearly 10 years playing MW4, off and on towards the end - but no, they didn't meet the standard implied by their name. I doubt I am alone in thinking that the MW video games have not lived up to their potential yet; it seems even the MWO devs realized this, even though they've not gotten the foundational combat mechanic right.
6
