533 replies to this topic

[von Pilsner]

Zylo, on 29 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

This is a good idea for tournament play but with so many claiming that those avoiding 8vs8 are just trying to get easy kills doing sync-drops wouldn't those same sync-dropping players just join matches against the easiest teams to beat while avoiding any challenging teams?

Yes, I think you are correct...

[Bishop Steiner]

Choombatta, on 29 December 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

There ya go Mr. Steiner.
Your first post, that directly quoted me, after my initial post, that quoted no one.

Back peddle all you want, but you are trolling for sure.

Actually, you are right, I did knock your original post. It was minor enough with the rest, I didn't realize that was you. Call it how you want. (OMG!!! I forgot a random, and incorrect argument that I corrected). So apologies for any name calling.

That being said, trolling is when a person is actively causing trouble. I do that to Vassago and a few others. Calling me making actual points and supporting them with sound reasoning? Can't really be called trolling. I don't backpedal (I learned in MWO it doesn't work too well, things drive like mack trucks), I keep rolling forward.

[Ursh]

We are deliberately launching 4mans to spite you. You want to kill us, and we are betting we can organize 4 pugs better than you can. My win loss shows that this is true. You can manage a controlled environment well, but I manage chaos well. Sorry you are sitting in a queue waiting for other ocd competitions.

[Krondor]

SlXSlXSlX, on 29 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

@ barnaby

So becuse they cant prove it with stats, that we are forbidden access to, they are wrong? You say its an imagined problem, can we get a pie chart to back that up please?

Before phase 1 PGI made a comment about 8-man drops accounted for ~10% of games... nowhere near the amount PUGs complained about.

Edited by Krondor, 29 December 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

I did not even play then. I was talking about now. How long ago was that? I don't know when that shift happened. I feel like its a problem, and alot of the types of players that would, don't even use forums. A ton don't. I know theres a ton of diff arguments, mine is the community will be smaller, I see some even games, and they are fun. But the 8-0s are not. I am hopeful the matching patch helps, and close matches become the norm.

[Krondor]

SlXSlXSlX, on 29 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I did not even play then. I was talking about now. How long ago was that? I don't know when that shift happened. I feel like its a problem, and alot of the types of players that would, don't even use forums. A ton don't. I know theres a ton of diff arguments, mine is the community will be smaller, I see some even games, and they are fun. But the 8-0s are not. I am hopeful the matching patch helps, and close matches become the norm.

8-0 matches happen because with only 8 mechs a side it is very easy to seriously tip the scales to one side or another. A group of PUGs simply all staying within 2 grids of eachother vs. a team that half runs off and lonewolfs will likely end in 8-0. Add any type of tactical co-ordination and it doesn't take much, all else being equal, to win with a blowout.

Before phase-1 8 man groups were matched up against pug groups. The results were as you would expect. However, this led to an amount of very vocal puggers claiming that every 8-0 loss they experienced was due to dropping against a full premade. To the MWO community's credit, most people called BS, but the whining got so bad that PGI themselves commented on it.

At the end of the day some of these vocal puggers (and I say some.. the vocal crybabies are actually very few) will find any excuse to blame their losing on except for their own lack of understanding of how the game is played. The "nerf LRM" camp is a perfect example.

It's the same thing when, back in CB when R&R was quite high, some would complain they couldn't get any kills and this and that needed to be nerfed to make the game easier. I asked several and never once had any of them actually tell me what build they were using, or how they would go about playing a match.

People just want to blame anything but their lack of skill for getting rolled. Premades have been the boogyman ever since they started group drops.

Now where was I?

Oh yea, current 8 man drops boring.

Return to your regular programming

Edited by Krondor, 29 December 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Barnaby Jones]

SlXSlXSlX, on 29 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I did not even play then. I was talking about now. How long ago was that? I don't know when that shift happened. I feel like its a problem, and alot of the types of players that would, don't even use forums. A ton don't. I know theres a ton of diff arguments, mine is the community will be smaller, I see some even games, and they are fun. But the 8-0s are not. I am hopeful the matching patch helps, and close matches become the norm.

then perhaps you should do some research on how things actually are, rather than just believing how people tell you they are.

[GaussDragon]

Zylo, on 29 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

This is a good idea for tournament play but with so many claiming that those avoiding 8vs8 are just trying to get easy kills doing sync-drops wouldn't those same sync-dropping players just join matches against the easiest teams to beat while avoiding any challenging teams?

I think having a challenge is the whole point.

On another note, I think we have a genuine threadnaught developing here

[MahKraah]

its verry difficult to pugstomp!
why? because there are barly any pug teams on the field!
practicaly every match i play i can identify a 4 man team on the opposing side( i play 1% 8v8, 50% solo pug, 49% 4man teamdrop) . in my chapter noone do syncdrops , its way to much afford.
id like to play 8v8 but i dont have the reflexes(over 40 years old) to pilot a 130kmh raven nor do i have the c bills to buy 3 atlas same goes for half of my team.
no friend or foe markers no minimap -> no tactical movement you simply dont know where your team is nor where the hostiles areyou HAVE to move in a bulk. your friend shout: i have a raven on my ***! you rush in and save his rear armorplate, no longer possible because you can not find him.
if you opt to move into a 8v8 with a non optimal (6-8 ecm, 5-6 assault) setup you need to resort to hit and run to wear your oponents down but that wont work because there massive bulk will simply move to the cap and end the game no matter your skills or tactics. if you outmanuever them with a more mobile group and cap first you wont get any c-bills because capping is no longer rewarded.
8v8 with ecm allowes for 1 setup and one tactic and if you cant get that setup for any reason you simply have to lose 90%of the matches, no matter of skills or tactic. generaly 8v8 are not a fun or vald option anyomore for any medium or good skilled and equiped group, if you are not elite skilled and perfect equiped you will simply loose 100%.
the solution?
restrict ecm to 2-3 per team to broaden the tactical options
introduce a lobby where 2 groupes can agree to custom restrictions bevore they meet on the field.

or something VERRY unconventional, after we cant relay on pgi fixing the 8v8 gameplay/matchmaking quik:
every team oriented playergroup starts to drop 8 man when ever possible with highest priority, with whatever they want to bring! that way the chances are high that you get paired with a other non elite equiped team and its game on, good games. from time to time you will land against the diehard elite, bad luck bad game, rush to the next one.
its us casual players opting out of the 8v8 that leaves only the diehard elite in there and when ever you try a 8v8 you will meet only those and die a quik and horrible death. us shying away made the promissing and long asked for 8v8 a no go for any one below best of the best status.

best solution: arranged fights with custom restrictions, out of a lobby, ad TD mode to avoid cap rush matches.

pugstomping?create 3 groupes
1st solo only
2nd 2 and 4 man teams, no need to drag solo players in to get to 8
3rd 8v8, problem solved.

[Greyfyl]

Krondor, on 29 December 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Before phase 1 PGI made a comment about 8-man drops accounted for ~10% of games... nowhere near the amount PUGs complained about.

And yet they quickly implemented phase 1 after OB started even though pug players 'were basically making the whole thing up'. That doesn't really add up now does it.

If I remember it was Paul that posted the results of his little 'test'. The whole post was overly vague and reeked of someone trying to cover his own butt. They dropped the ball, anyone that says otherwise is just trolling. Going into OB with 8 man teams available to play against new players in trial mechs with no consideration of skill level or experience was just asking for trouble. The first week of OB was brutal in the evenings if you tried to PUG, brutal.

[SilentWolff]

GaussDragon, on 29 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

I've read this entire thread and my only comment is... where is the lobby? Instead of having all these issues with asymmetry in terms of the number of players and drop weights, let the players sort it out by choosing who (insta-ELO) they want to drop against, how many (instant-solver for 4, 8 or any sized groups) they want to match up against and at what weights they mutually choose.

This, a thousand times this.

[Krondor]

Greyfyl, on 29 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

And yet they quickly implemented phase 1 after OB started even though pug players 'were basically making the whole thing up'. That doesn't really add up now does it.

It adds up fine. Everyone knew 8 man drops against PUGs was broken. 8 man groups shouldn't be matched against pugs. That's not in dispute. It just didn't happen the 90% of the time some PUGs claimed it did. Some were claiming that an 8-0 score meant they HAD to have dropped against an 8-man, which is complete horse hooky.

Edited by Krondor, 29 December 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Broceratops]

Greyfyl, on 29 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

And yet they quickly implemented phase 1 after OB started even though pug players 'were basically making the whole thing up'. That doesn't really add up now does it.

If I remember it was Paul that posted the results of his little 'test'. The whole post was overly vague and reeked of someone trying to cover his own butt. They dropped the ball, anyone that says otherwise is just trolling. Going into OB with 8 man teams available to play against new players in trial mechs with no consideration of skill level or experience was just asking for trouble. The first week of OB was brutal in the evenings if you tried to PUG, brutal.

i'm pretty sure they lost a ton of players that first week. it was a ******** decision to go open not only without matchmaking, but with it set up so that 8 mans and other large groups were virtually guaranteed to play completely new pugs in trial mechs because of weight matchups.

and YES, there were a lot of 8 mans at that point. there were more 8 mans at that point than literally any point before or after. everyone was on board the launch train.

this was the stupidest decision made by PGI by a long shot and if the game fails it'll be on the top of the list of reasons why. anyone who gives the go-ahead to release to the public with a design flaw as large and obvious as that is not qualified to be in that position to be frank.

Edited by Broceratops, 29 December 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Krondor, on 29 December 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

It adds up fine. Everyone knew 8 man drops against PUGs was broken. 8 man groups shouldn't be matched against pugs. That's not in dispute. It just didn't happen the 90% of the time some PUGs claimed it did. Some were claiming that an 8-0 score meant they HAD to have dropped against an 8-man, which is complete horse hooky.

I don't remember anyone at anytime claiming that they were playing against premades 90% of the time. And by the way - 4man groups shouldn't be matched up against pugs either unless their is a 4man premade on the other side as well.

I was off work due to bad weather in our area when OB started, I saw the 8 man groups the first few evenings running rampant. Obviously not everyone got your memo that "Everyone knew 8 man drops against PUGs was broken. 8 man groups shouldn't be matched against pugs". We all knew it wouldn't be good for the game considering OB would give us a flood of new players - it was an opportunity, and to be honest the community failed miserably.

Just like they are failing now by continuing to do 4-mans instead of manning up and going into 8-mans. Excuses are a dime a dozen - people gravitate to the easy path.

[Krondor]

Greyfyl, on 29 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Just like they are failing now by continuing to do 4-mans instead of manning up and going into 8-mans. Excuses are a dime a dozen - people gravitate to the easy path.

Or maybe 8-man games are so effing boring none of us want to play them, because you know... we like enjoying the game?

I've had some damned good 4-man matches recently, win or lose, with competent PUGs on both sides.

[Andrew Cranston]

I really don't think there is this massive feeling amongst the 8 man teams that dropping against pugs (in 4's or with the old system) is the way to go because it's the path of least resistance. The current 8 mans can a pain because the implementation is just horrid. Part of it is general balance and part of it is the complete lack of weight/class limitations. You bring Ravens for lights. You can argue that point if you'd like, but if you look in a competitive drop, say in RHOD, that's what you will see brought. Unless you're practicing for tournament drops you then stack the rest of your team with Assaults with maybe one or two Heavys. There are only a few competitive builds/chassis for those classes. Not everyone wants to play at 600+ tons/play those mechs. You can beat those ******** comps with more reasonable comps, say 2/2/2/2, but it usually involves a base cap, followed by a lot of bitching on the forums about how unfair base cap is. So unless you're training for something, like tournament play, what do you do? You wait until you have the people on who want to play those mechs and those types of matches, or you do 4/solo queues.

Even the next phase of implementation is horrid for 8 mans. PGI isn't catering to the 8 man teams, they're catering to the individual players who haven't picked a unit and want to drop solo. They are addressing issues that will make solo drops more fun to play in, as you're more likely to be placed against beginners if you are a beginner, but it only makes sync drops for something like RHOD even more difficult than they were before. It also entirely avoids the weight class issue.

I think some form of a lobby where two teams can set up against one another, even in some extremely limited form, would make the 8 mans much more enjoyable and you'd see more teams playing.

**Also, just a note, I didn't really intend this as a complaint post, I still enjoy the game and play frequently, I'm just noting that the main reason the people gravitate towards 4 mans right now is that typically they are more fun. Those who try to coordinate two 4's to pubstomp is an exception.

Edited by Andrew Cranston, 29 December 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Glythe]

I know a lot of folk are upset with either the lack of weight limits, the suspicions of cheating, and the omnipresence of extreme cheese team builds (look ma, 6 ppc Stalker).

Sayyid, on 28 December 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Playing Planetside 2.

Gotta love that double XP marathon!

[WC Angelo]

I'm still going through this thread but wanted to chime in. I currently Pug when I don't have much time or play in 4 mans when I do. I've been thinking about playing in 8 mans because it "seems" like it would be the best MWO experience; a full team working together doing battle against another coordinated team.

The reasons why I haven't played in an 8 man group yet is simply because I don't know that many players and on Teamspeak, everyone plays on 4 mans mostly.

The game as it stands makes it difficult to be social and organize matches. It would be helpful if there where chat channels where we could find other players interested in 8 mans.

Also, with no custom game mode, even if players wanted to implement their own match rules (for example, 2-2-2-2), its not possible because you can't control who you drop against. Custom games would allow teams to try different drop restrictions and see which is the best gameplay experience. Once there is a popular format for 8 mans, I'm sure that you'll begin to see a lot more people interested and playing it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krondor, on 29 December 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

8-0 matches happen because with only 8 mechs a side it is very easy to seriously tip the scales to one side or another. A group of PUGs simply all staying within 2 grids of eachother vs. a team that half runs off and lonewolfs will likely end in 8-0. Add any type of tactical co-ordination and it doesn't take much, all else being equal, to win with a blowout.

Before phase-1 8 man groups were matched up against pug groups. The results were as you would expect. However, this led to an amount of very vocal puggers claiming that every 8-0 loss they experienced was due to dropping against a full premade. To the MWO community's credit, most people called BS, but the whining got so bad that PGI themselves commented on it.

At the end of the day some of these vocal puggers (and I say some.. the vocal crybabies are actually very few) will find any excuse to blame their losing on except for their own lack of understanding of how the game is played. The "nerf LRM" camp is a perfect example.

It's the same thing when, back in CB when R&R was quite high, some would complain they couldn't get any kills and this and that needed to be nerfed to make the game easier. I asked several and never once had any of them actually tell me what build they were using, or how they would go about playing a match.

People just want to blame anything but their lack of skill for getting rolled. Premades have been the boogyman ever since they started group drops.

Now where was I?

Oh yea, current 8 man drops boring.

Return to your regular programming

People need to look up the term "Combat Loss Groupings".

[Bishop Steiner]

Broceratops, on 29 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

i'm pretty sure they lost a ton of players that first week. it was a ******** decision to go open not only without matchmaking, but with it set up so that 8 mans and other large groups were virtually guaranteed to play completely new pugs in trial mechs because of weight matchups.

and YES, there were a lot of 8 mans at that point. there were more 8 mans at that point than literally any point before or after. everyone was on board the launch train.

this was the stupidest decision made by PGI by a long shot and if the game fails it'll be on the top of the list of reasons why. anyone who gives the go-ahead to release to the public with a design flaw as large and obvious as that is not qualified to be in that position to be frank.

Sadly,, you just described most Publishers.............. (Do you REALLY think the Devs are that ignorant of their own code issues? Beta Launch decision is almost always a push from the Publishers.)