17 replies to this topic

[Alfred VonGunn]

"Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3and [C3i Computer networks, and [Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming"


No where in that does it say completely blocks Missle locks. It says it confuses sensors. It also says a BAP will know it is happening which implies Mechs with BAP need a indication they are being disrupted and the general direction it is in...

]just sayin is allw

Edited by Alfred VonGunn, 27 December 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[WardenWolf]

/signed

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Agreed

[Malevolent Twitch]

agreed

[Kaptain]

Agreed. I would be OK with ECM cloaking enemy units and completely disabling lock IF, and only IF, stealth armor was introduced.

[InvalidUser]

/signed

[General Taskeen]

/Mega Signed

[Farix]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 December 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

No where in that does it say completely blocks Missle locks. It says it confuses sensors. It also says a BAP will know it is happening which implies Mechs with BAP need a indication they are being disrupted and the general direction it is in...

Missile locks are a creation of the video games and fiction, they don't exist in the TT rules. So it is a bit silly to complain about how something doesn't follow the TT rules when it affects something that isn't in the TT rules.

[Rip von Graze]

Farix, on 27 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Missile locks are a creation of the video games and fiction, they don't exist in the TT rules. So it is a bit silly to complain about how something doesn't follow the TT rules when it affects something that isn't in the TT rules.

I really wanted to take your comment apart (because I seriously dislike ECM in the game atm) but you are right, the TT rules do not tell us anything about a mechs missle systems having to obtain a lock. I assumed LRM locks were handled by the targeting computer. The targeting computer would handle all the math necessary to fire your missile arrays but the software too generic to really handle the finer details. (Requiring the Artemis systems to be developed) The books seemed to suggest pilots would try to obtain a lock for LRMs but it has been years since I read those.

If this was true then ECM correctly blocks locking onto a target because the computer doesn't think anything exists in your field of fire. My primary issue with ECM is that we have small maps and ECM can cover a large enough area that it seems to hide half the team if one mech has it equipped. Invariably there are more than one, being FOTM gear.

What ECM needs is a reduction in bubble and disruption while moving so you have to nearly be on top of the mech to gain the benefits. It seems to me that ECM, even on larger battlefields once we have them should be a tool so my mech can get from point A to point B without being seen or shot up too much or so that my command mech can be running the show without having to deal with being targeted by LRM boats.

BAP can detect the movement ripple (smart tech should be able to tell there are deadzones shouldn't they?) but doesn't do anything else.

-- Ripvan

[Icedpyre]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 December 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

No where in that does it say completely blocks Missle locks. It says it confuses sensors. It also says a BAP will know it is happening which implies Mechs with BAP need a indication they are being disrupted and the general direction it is in...

]just sayin is allw

Um...it doesn't block missile locks. It slows them. I can't say anything for the BAP, because none of my mechs have one. I can tell you a mech WITHOUT a BAP knows when an enemy ECM is nearby, because your radar says "low signal" and goes all fuzzy. I can/have locked on ECM mechs with lrms before. I have also hit said mechs with missiles. It just takes like three times as long to lock. Also without line of sight, you lose lock extremely fast.

[DocBach]

List I made on what I think Information Warfare should look like in the game from a different post:


ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up. ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to an entire team, it should:

-Disrupt Beagle's ability to detect shut down 'Mechs
-Negate the tight groupings of Artemis-enhanced missiles
-Negate the tight groupings of Narc-enhanced missiles, as well as prevent indirect fire on a Narc'd 'Mech without LOS (more on this later)
-Prevent spotters in the ECM bubble, or on the other side of, with line of sight passingh through a bubble from transmitting target data to team mates outside the bubble
-Make target ID slower to acquire, but not block locks or targeting completely
-Generate ghost targets - bring up the command map with B in ghost target mode and plot a false radar signal that shows up like a target shrouded by ECM - target-able by R, but no target data available
-Run counter ECM

Artemis:
-No Changes, should tighten LRM groups against targets in line of sight

Beagle should:
-Detect shutdown 'Mechs outside of ECM bubbles
-Negate ECM's target acquisition slowdown while outside the bubble
-Notify the user that they are in the ECM bubble, sort of how we automatically have now with the low signal our sensors would know there is an ECM around, but not know where the actual bubble starts or ends.

Narc should:
-Tighten LRM/SRM grouping on targets in line of sight
-Allow targets marked by Narc to remain targeted even when LOS is lost so LRM attacks can continue indirectly without spotters
-Last for either an extended duration than current or until the location the Narc hit is destroyed

A couple simple changes would make all of the advanced EW equipment viable, while remaining faithful to the source material without being game breaking or overpowering. ECM would still be useful to take, especially for protection against LRM spotters, as it would prevent them from sending target data to their LRM boats, protect you from Narc which would actually be a useful item if it kept enemies lit up on radar for indirect fire without a spotter like the rules say it does, and give Beagle expanded roles like countering ECM outside of the bubble (inspired by detection rules from MaxTech), and serving as a warning system that you are inside the bubble propper, which would be useful for spotters trying to Narc targets or transmit data.

The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

[Rivy]

It's funny that according to that description ECM should mess with thermal (if it's infrared)
Even moar powerful !

[Aedensin]

Icedpyre, on 27 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Um...it doesn't block missile locks. It slows them. I can't say anything for the BAP, because none of my mechs have one. I can tell you a mech WITHOUT a BAP knows when an enemy ECM is nearby, because your radar says "low signal" and goes all fuzzy. I can/have locked on ECM mechs with lrms before. I have also hit said mechs with missiles. It just takes like three times as long to lock. Also without line of sight, you lose lock extremely fast.

I also use LRMs and streaks. I can absolutely confirm it is nearly impossible to get a lock on a mech that I can see standing 300m dead infront of me without TAG. Especially if the ECM mech is near me.

[Farix]

Icedpyre, on 27 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Um...it doesn't block missile locks. It slows them.

Where in the TT does it give any rules about missile locks? It doesn't. Missile locks are thing of the video games and fiction, in part because missile locks would unbalance the TT game. Thus PGI can have ECM affect missile locks in any way they see fit to balance their game.

[Aedensin]

Farix, on 28 December 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

Where in the TT does it give any rules about missile locks? It doesn't. Missile locks are thing of the video games and fiction, in part because missile locks would unbalance the TT game. Thus PGI can have ECM affect missile locks in any way they see fit to balance their game.

http://en.wikipedia....Missile_lock-on

Not entirely fiction.

[ice trey]

Aedensin, on 28 December 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....Missile_lock-on

Not entirely fiction.

You were ignoring his post. He's not talking about "Real Life", he's talking about tabletop mechanics.

Let's not bring real life mechanics into this. In real life, nobody would ever use bipedal giant robots - period.

While not entirely true, Streak SRMs do have missile locks, but standard LRMs and SRMs vary in their descriptions between being dead-fire missiles to having very rudimentary homing systems. You even need special, more expensive tracking systems in said missiles to get any benefits from TAG, Artemis IV, or NARC (And need ones specific to each system).

While I can attest that ECM is not supposed to be able to block indirect fire (Which mechanically seems to be more like radioing a position) or Streak SRMs, The way that MWO treats both of these weapons systems makes me inclined to disagree with the OP. In MWO, Indirect fire is far more effective than direct fire, and serves as far more than a pittance when attacking a target, unlike with tabletop rules which increase the difficulty of scoring a hit dramatically while firing LRMs Indirectly. Likewise in MWO, Streak SRMs have very tight groupings and tend to not spread over the whole body of a 'mech like in tabletop, making them absolutely devastating, especially against light 'mechs. Further, AMS still has no effect against streaks.

At this point, ECM is very strong, but at this point in the Beta they really need to dial down the effectiveness of Streaks before making ECM ignore IDF/SSRMs.

[Farix]

Aedensin, on 28 December 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....Missile_lock-on

Not entirely fiction.

I was specifically talking about missile locks in Battletech.

[Aedensin]

Farix, on 28 December 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

I was specifically talking about missile locks in Battletech.

Sorry I misunderstood, I read "Missile locks are thing of the video games and fiction" as a fairly general statement.