317 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

We were promised a deep Information Warfare pillar where we'd have several different pieces of equipment that all provided an edge over our opponents and the other equipment, working against each other. What we got was ECM, ECM, and ECM, partially because of the fact that it was implemented with way more features then it ever had in any iteration of Battletech or MechWarrior, partially because implementation of other pieces of Information Warfare is so lackluster; ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up.

ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to block an entire team from sensors:


(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

(Total Warfare, pg 134): "The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"

ECM should not make missile locks impossible:
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may still be fired as normal missiles through ECM." and "Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within the bubble. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM."

The previous rules state that missile attacks occur as normal, just not augmented with guidance from their advanced systems. Under no rulesets does it say that standard Guardian ECM negates the effect of Streak missile systems.

In disrupt mode ECM should have the following abilities:
-Disrupt Beagle's ability to detect shut down 'Mechs (Total Warfare, pg 134)
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

-Negate the tight groupings of Artemis-enhanced missiles (Total Warfare, pg 134)
"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table Bonus"


-Negate the tight groupings of Narc-enhanced missiles, as well as prevent indirect fire on a Narc'd 'Mech without LOS (more on this later)
(Total Warfare, pg 134): "Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within the bubble. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM."

-Prevent spotters in the ECM bubble, or on the other side of, with line of sight passing through a bubble from transmitting target data to team mates outside the bubble
(Total Warfare, Pg 134) "ECM has the effect of cutting off any C3 equipped unit from its network." Even though we don't officially have C3 installed on our 'Mechs, the way that our units communicate target data is what the C3 network does effectively. Being inside the ECM bubble should disrupt your ability to send data back to the rest of your team.

-Make target ID slower to acquire, but not block locks or targeting completely
(Maximum Tech, pg 54) "Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they produce powerful distinctive electronic signatures."


(Technical Readout 3050: Revised, pg 196) "Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification."

So sensors know something is out there, it just can't identify it or provide target information like the paper doll.

-Generate ghost targets in a seperate mode from disrupt/counter - bring up the command map with B in ghost target mode and plot a false radar signal that shows up like a target shrouded by ECM - target-able by R, but no target data available
(Tactical Operations, pg 100): "The ECM suite can be tuned to generate "ghost targets" that may affect the ability of enemy units to properly target friendly units. The ECM loses its normal function when used this way."

-Run counter ECM mode
(Tactical Operations, pg 99): "An ECM suite can be tuned to act as electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) in order to negate enemy ECM systems."


Beagle should:

-Provide 360 degree scanning and targeting within a 150 meter bubble, including 'Mechs outside of line of sight such as behind buildings or terrain, as long as the 'Mech is not shut down

(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range." Like ECM, Beagle projects a scanning bubble of 5 hexes around it, equating to 150m of range

-Detect shutdown 'Mechs outside of ECM bubbles, if the unit with Active Probe has line of sight to the shut down unit
(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range."

-Negate ECM's target acquisition slowdown while outside the bubble
(Tactical Operations, Pg 99) "A unit with an active probe can also acquire information about an enemy unit’s status"

-Identify ECM Ghost targets as being false targets
(Tactical Operations, Pg 99) "A unit with an active probe will find it easier to overcome an ECM’s ghost target ability"

-Identify users the boundaries of the ECM bubble if they encounter ECM within Beagle's 150m scan bubble
(Total Warfare, pg 134)
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

The Narc beacon was rendered completely worthless when PGI failed to include its most important perk (Total Warfare, pg 139) which states:

"Once a Narc pod is attached to a target, all Narc-equipped missiles may be fired indirectly at a target without a spotter"

By this writing, we should be able to maintain locks on targets affected by Narc even if they go behind terrain and cut off line of sight, thus Narc should:

-Tighten LRM/SRM grouping on targets in line of sight
-Allow targets marked by Narc to remain targeted even when LOS is lost so LRM attacks can continue indirectly without spotters
-Last for either an extended duration than current or until the location the Narc hit is destroyed

A couple simple changes would make all of the advanced EW equipment viable, while remaining faithful to the source material without being game breaking or overpowering. ECM would still be useful to take, especially for protection against LRM spotters, as it would prevent them from sending target data to their LRM boats, protect you from Narc which would actually be a useful item if it kept enemies lit up on radar for indirect fire without a spotter like the rules say it does, and give Beagle expanded roles like countering ECM outside of the bubble (inspired by detection rules from MaxTech and Tactical Operations), and serving as a warning system that you are inside the bubble propper, which would be useful for spotters trying to Narc targets or transmit data.

The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

Edited by DocBach, 03 January 2013 - 11:41 PM.

[Orzorn]

Agreed on all counts (especially NARC, they ruined the item by not letting it provide a lock even if nobody is in line of sight. That was the big reason to take it. The way it is now, its just like a heavier, worse version of TAG), except you missed on for BAP:
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"

This means that BAP should be able to see the ECM bubble on their map, at least with the way ECM is currently implemented (since all players know they're being jammed when they enter the ECM bubble).

The reason I say this is the way the sentence is worded. The active probe can not penetrate the ECM area of effect, meaning it is not inside the area of effect, yet, as the next sentence says, it would notice that it is being jammed (can not see past a certain area). This should, in effect, produce a big blind spot that the BAP notices and then places on your map.

Edited by Orzorn, 28 December 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[DocBach]

Excellent idea, would make Beagle even more useful if it could somewhat triangulate the location of the ECM source, as described by the actual rules for the equipment.

Edited by DocBach, 28 December 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Orzorn]

You know, I keep running these scenarios in my head with these more TT-accurate items, and its just so much better than what we have right now. Missiles are actually useful once again (however, that isn't to say that missiles, both LRM and SSRM might not need a damage/tracking nerf. I recognize that they may be too strong at times). BAP, Artemis, etc are useful once again because ECM won't be taken all the time just for the invisibility cloak and missile invulnerability shield.

At the same time, massed ECM losses a lot of power, yet gains some power in other areas, such as subversion. If you had 4 ECM players on your team, you could generate 4 ghost mechs on the map. That's some hefty power and would provide a lot of tactical advantages, but you're still losing on in the fact that you don't have 4 missile invulnerability shields, rather, you only affect NARC (which not a lot of people take), Artemis (plenty of people take this, even with the way ECM is right now, so it would be worth it), BAP (more people would take it with the proposed buffs, so you also do fine here), and sharing of data (very strong ability). It makes it more fair overall because you don't have useless weapons, and makes ECM more niche because its only countering equipment. The fact that ECM, a very light and low crit equipment, counters weapons is absolutely ridiculous.

And that's how game balance is supposed to be. Don't lump all the power on one item, but don't nerf them into the ground. Spread the power around and that way everyone can have their cake and eat it to and we get a healthier meta-game. The way it is right now, Artemis, NARC, and BAP are totally useless, and SSRMs are useless on anyone that doesn't have ECM.

Like I said, these changes don't imply that SSRMs don't need something done to them. They're too powerful as it is, but having that power concentrated along side the most powerful equipment in the game right now just makes it lopsided as all hell. ECM + Streak lag shielding Ravens are too much for me to take. It hurts my soul to fight them.

Edited by Orzorn, 28 December 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[DocBach]

Orzorn, on 28 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Like I said, these changes don't imply that SSRMs don't need something done to them. They're too powerful as it is, but having that power concentrated along side the most powerful equipment in the game right now just makes it lopsided as all hell. ECM + Streak lag shielding Ravens are too much for me to take. It hurts my soul to fight them.

Streak missiles need to have their groups opened up to where its rare for them to hit the same location on a 'Mech, and hit in places other than the torso. Making ECM 'Mechs unlockable was a terrible cure for symptoms of Streaks and LRMs being broken. PGI pretty much crippled a huge component of strategy in this game to fix people's cries of Streaks and LRM boats and it really has made MWO a shallow version of what it could be.

[Phalanx100bc]

Excellent post DocBach!!!

I can see the horror instilled in the XBOX mentality " I need a 20pg cheat-code/walkthru book " crowd. God forbid players may have to learn different tactics and employ skill in electronic warfare or any other aspects of MWO.

[Orzorn]

DocBach, on 28 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Streak missiles need to have their groups opened up to where its rare for them to hit the same location on a 'Mech, and hit in places other than the torso.

Remember that they're already doing this:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1500585

Quote

On the SSRM direct front, another fix has gone in where the SSRMs will now use arm and leg joints as viable lock-on targets. This spreads damage out more. I'll be working with David B on testing to see if the current implementation of SSRMs along with the reduced cockpit shake and smoke reduction will be enough of a nerf to help counter the SSRM effectiveness without having to directly hit damage/cooldown/heat etc.

Quote

Making ECM 'Mechs unlockable was a terrible cure for symptoms of Streaks and LRMs being broken. PGI pretty much crippled a huge component of strategy in this game to fix people's cries of Streaks and LRM boats and it really has made MWO a shallow version of what it could be.

Indeed. It doesn't help that they're trying to make TAG a counter to ECM when TAG requires a weapon hardpoint and still doesn't work inside of ECM (yet, according to the TT, it should). At this point I can safely say that TAG is not the answer to ECM woes. Actually balancing the freaking thing is.

[IIIuminaughty]

Good Idea

[DocBach]

Orzorn, on 28 December 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Indeed. It doesn't help that they're trying to make TAG a counter to ECM when TAG requires a weapon hardpoint and still doesn't work inside of ECM (yet, according to the TT, it should). At this point I can safely say that TAG is not the answer to ECM woes. Actually balancing the freaking thing is.

TAG shouldn't have had its range increased - its a tool for a spotter, not the launcher, and having to use a scout to actually scout is a crucial part of Information Warfare. Again, PGI's bandaid for a bulletwound that is OP ECM.

[Treckin]

While I disagree that TT rules are relevant here besides in a nostalgic sort of way, the theory crafting they have in MWO at the moment is complete rubbish.

One example would be ranges of weapons/sensors... Right now its an incoherent jumble.

Anything more organized then what they have would be a step up IMO.

As it is the mechanics of the new "game mode" are a perfect example of PGI's ongoing struggle to make things fun.

Remember that mimicking TT will not magically make any game fun...

I believe most peoples desire to see more adherence to TT rules is really just an expression of disappointment with the current theorycrafting/game mechanics.

Edited by Treckin, 28 December 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[DocBach]

Treckin, on 28 December 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

While I disagree that TT rules are relevant here besides in a nostalgic sort of way, the theory crafting they have in MWO at the moment is complete rubbish.

One example would be ranges of weapons/sensors... Right now its an incoherent jumble.

Anything more organized then what they have would be a step up IMO.

As it is the mechanics of the new "game mode" are a perfect example of PGI's ongoing struggle to make things fun.

Remember that mimicking TT will not magically make any game fun...

I believe most peoples desire to see more adherence to TT rules is really just an expression of disappointment with the current theorycrafting/game mechanics.

Do you believe a game of paper, scissors, rocks where rocks beat everything is fun? That's pretty much what we have with information warfare as current with ECM's capabilities while the other electronic warfare items providing little benefit at all. The TT game rules are a basis for what I suggest as an implementation, a citation from a paragraph and an idea of what I envision they would look like in a real time game.

Edited by DocBach, 28 December 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Treckin]

I think you should re-read my post, Im not sure you understood me.

[DocBach]

Maybe not. I got that any change was for the better, but that holding on to TT rules won't make a game magically fun. I comprehended it as "we need something different but not necessarily from the board game rules."

The paper, scissors, rocks comment wasn't necessarily aimed towards you, it was more or less a hypothetical question to support my original post.

[Kousagi]

We did go over this once before, and before quoting TT as a bases for change, you need to understand the intricacy of the system themselves, and how MWO does things different from TT already.

ECM, does not effect OTHER scanning systems or targeting computers. So non-standard systems that are added to mechs. Targeting computers are equipment ya have to add at the cost of crit/weight. So, we don't have them in MWO, so ya...

Angel ECM effects streaks locking on, Thats in the rule books, they added 1 effect from Angel to the Guardian for balance reasons, but its still a TT rule. To add, LRM's in TT do not lock on like Streaks, So thats why ECM does not effect them. However LRM's in MWO do, so they made ECM effect it. Though I wonder how they will put in Streak LRM's with normal ones already locking on.

BAP should know its being jammed, but that does not mean the system can see the jamming radius. Same thing happens with modern day radios that are being jammed. One sec you are talking on a clear line, next its full of static for no reason. You know its being jammed, you just have no clue where from. MWO however, lets eveyone know they are being jammed, without the need of a BAP. You can even see that your friends or enemys are being jammed as well.

The Narc thing, We would need narc tracking missiles to be able to do what you are saying. I'd be all for it, give us that type of ammo, but right now, we don't have it.

Edited by Kousagi, 28 December 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Orzorn]

I agree about TT rules not making everything magically fun, but just looking at how those would play out in MWO we can see just how much more balanced the game would be. ECM wouldn't be a cloak, it wouldn't be a missile shield, and it's main purpose would be to stop other niche equipments from doing their jobs.

In that manner, because ECM would work like that, you would see it less (you'd likely see 1, maybe 2 per game, unless the missile metagame came back and missiles became heavily used. Then ECM would be used to keep BAP, NARC, and Artemis in check and reduce missiles to standard usage). If we saw it less, we'd see BAP, Artemis, and NARC more.

At the same time, if they did do the ghost mech idea, then ECM would gain some additional powers, and that would both help the newly nerfed ECM and also allow greater gameplay tactics. Compare that to what ECM currently does; it strangles the metagame, restricting missiles, BAP, Artemis, NARC, and even TAG (the item that's supposed to counter it) into marginal, almost non-existent uses, and also marginalizes radar, one of the core gameplay mechanics. Like I said before, ECM, by stopping missiles, is already unfair because of the mechs its used on. They can use streaks because they aren't likely to be affected by ECM, but everyone else can not, because they're unlikely to be in a situation where ECM isn't affecting them. Its possibly one of the most unfair gameplay mechanic interactions I've seen since Blizzard added trinkets in during Burning Crusade. Yeah, it was sure fun fighting an undead Rogue as a Warlock with his double CC breaks. Situations like that aren't fun for anybody, and they aren't healthy for the metagame.

[Karl Split]

Great idea, information warfare sounded awsome in the dev blog but the current implementation seems lackluster

[DocBach]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

We did go over this once before, and before quoting TT as a bases for change, you need to understand the intricacy of the system themselves, and how MWO does things different from TT already.

ECM, does not effect OTHER scanning systems or targeting computers. So non-standard systems that are added to mechs. Targeting computers are equipment ya have to add at the cost of crit/weight. So, we don't have them in MWO, so ya...

Angel ECM effects streaks locking on, Thats in the rule books, they added 1 effect from Angel to the Guardian for balance reasons, but its still a TT rule. To add, LRM's in TT do not lock on like Streaks, So thats why ECM does not effect them. However LRM's in MWO do, so they made ECM effect it. Though I wonder how they will put in Streak LRM's with normal ones already locking on.

BAP should know its being jammed, but that does not mean the system can see the jamming radius. Same thing happens with modern day radios that are being jammed. One sec you are talking on a clear line, next its full of static for no reason. You know its being jammed, you just have no clue where from. MWO however, lets eveyone know they are being jammed, without the need of a BAP. You can even see that your friends or enemys are being jammed as well.

The Narc thing, We would need narc tracking missiles to be able to do what you are saying. I'd be all for it, give us that type of ammo, but right now, we don't have it.

Yeah, we've gone over ECM with each other and our different opinions on if LRMs lock in battle tech, but one thing is in none of the source rules were LRMs or streaks made ineffective by ECM. We are both familiar on how ECM works in real life, but for the sake of fun and balance a lot of things in reality are waved in the game.

As for beagle, perhaps normal sensors don't receive warning they are in the bubble and it requires beagle to know you are being jammed. Would make it useful for spotters trying to transmit data or fire a narc into an ECM bubble.

Edited by DocBach, 28 December 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

We did go over this once before, and before quoting TT as a bases for change, you need to understand the intricacy of the system themselves, and how MWO does things different from TT already.

ECM, does not effect OTHER scanning systems or targeting computers. So non-standard systems that are added to mechs. Targeting computers are equipment ya have to add at the cost of crit/weight. So, we don't have them in MWO, so ya...

Angel ECM effects streaks locking on, Thats in the rule books, they added 1 effect from Angel to the Guardian for balance reasons, but its still a TT rule. To add, LRM's in TT do not lock on like Streaks, So thats why ECM does not effect them. However LRM's in MWO do, so they made ECM effect it. Though I wonder how they will put in Streak LRM's with normal ones already locking on.

You can't act like, because MWO does things differently, that you can argue for LRMs to not lock on and then act as though us arguing for them to be able to lock on is something that shouldn't happen. Its a double standard. Besides that, regardless if you want to talk about the differences between standard radar and "targeting systems", if we use the TT as a base, ECM never, not once, affected missiles.

As far as I'm concerned, from both a TT and a purely game balance perspective, ECM should not affect missiles locking on. At all. A piece of equipment should not counter an entire set of weaponry without some sort of drawback (like how stealth armor, when active, generates a huge amount of heat). Weaponry takes ammo (which can explode), hardpoints (which are limited), tonnage, and crits. ECM takes...tonnage and crits, and a very small amount at that. It is straight up wrong that it counters missiles.

Quote

The Narc thing, We would need narc tracking missiles to be able to do what you are saying. I'd be all for it, give us that type of ammo, but right now, we don't have it.

Actually, NARC only works with tracking LRMs in the TT anyways. Even their currently implementation (providing tighter grouping to standard LRMs) is not TT friendly, so there is no reason to argue that we'd need special ammunition.

[Red squirrel]

Nice post OP
read and said this before but never saw it posted as sophisticated as you did..

Especially NARC is completely useless I never ever use it. (Even before ECM)
I like the idea to have it attached to a hit section and have a certain probability of incoming missles to destroy it
or to loose it when that section goes boom. I hate the implementation with a timer be it 10sec or 60sec.
When NARCed you can still get behind a building or hill and have the LRM hit the obstacle.

I also like the idea of ghost targets. I think lock time should be increased on ECM mechs but it should not impossible to lock at all.

Finally implement Null Sig Armor and for additional stealth maybe even Chameleon light polarization shield


Edit: I think one reason for the ECM implementation was to nerf Streaks. So why not give us Angle ECM for that (and ignore the timeline on this item)

Edited by Red squirrel, 28 December 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[Lagfest]

At first I was all for ECM. The way it was Orig.
But after Pugging for so long and seeing it absolutely destroy balance in games, I think it needs a stronger counter. and or multiple counters.

BAP, would be good to counter SOME of its effects. but not all. Otherwise everyone would mount BAP and ECM would be useless.
Now you see the issue.

And I really don't appreciate the whole "This is how TT works so they NEED to do this" comments.
The whole talking down to us like you are an expert hurts your point more than helps it.