317 replies to this topic

[Murphy7]

DocBach, on 28 December 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

To murphy- the major problem I have with guardian doing all the abovw is that it instantly obsoletes equipment like angel ecm or stealth armor before they even come out.

Two answers for that,

Re: Angel ECM - streak canceling mode is not a separate channel, but folded in to both Stealth and Jamming channels. Angel is better than guardian, without one obsoleting the other, though I do not know when Angel is available in the timeline nor if it has a tonnage/critical space drawback.

Re: stealth armor - 13 - 20 years out if we follow a strict 1:1 ratio to the timeline. Lets burn that bridge when we get to it.

[Orzorn]

I fail to see the need for ECM to counter streaks. The only reason one would want that is either to fold Angel functionality into it, or because they have it in their head that streaks are powerful and need a counter.

If streaks are too powerful, nerf the damn streaks. As for folding functionality, I don't think we need it because no other equipment so far has done so, except for maybe the standard information sharing, which emulates some aspects of C3. I mean, if we're starting to add in stuff from such a wide variety of systems just because they're somewhat similar, we might as well start tacking on bloodhound probe rules onto the BAP. It would only be fair, if ECM is getting aspects of angel and stealth armor.

Edited by Orzorn, 28 December 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

StUffz, on 28 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Unless we are army boys who served under sig command I think nobody really knows the full potential how ECM works in real life. We only know part of what the capabilities of the tools are and the other part is top secrect - military confidential. If you really know how it works, then nobody would complain about 1.5 tons and two crit slots of ECM in BT/MWO.

By the way, has someone considered that mech hits should maybe disturb jamming of ECM?

I actually worked on jammers in the Navy. They really aren't all that secret.

[StUffz]

Lonestar1771, on 28 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I actually worked on jammers in the Navy. They really aren't all that secret.

But are they accessible to public in detail or have you just explained them what they are allowed to hear? If you worked on jammers, you must have at least a certain level of authorization.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm spitballing here so go easy on me if you see something you don't like:

Sensors-BAP-TAG-NARC-ECM

Sensor range increased to 1000m

BAP

BAP now has two features: Passive and Active

Passive increases sensor range by 25%
Detects shut down mechs within the area

Active sends out a 360 "ping" every 5s at a range of 150% of normal sensors
Detects shut down mechs within the area
Identifies "null information" (ECM) areas and displays info on the map
Shows all units within the range but does not allow for target or info acq
Reveals position to all enemy units within the range but doesn't allow for acq

TAG

TAG range reduced back to 450m
TAG now functions similar to missile lock at 150% acq speed; LOS breaks "lock"
TAG can now be retrofitted to any weapon hardpoint at a cost of 100%

NARC Beacon

NARC beacons now immediately allow for targetting even when outside of LOS (ghetto c3)
NARC ammo increased to 12; velocity increased to 300m/s
NARC launcher can now be retrofitted to any weapon hardpoint at a cost of 100%

ECM

Reduces sensor range by 50% and increases target info acq by 50%
No longer blocks missile lock acq but increases lock acq by 100%
Negates BAP passive sensor abilities
Negates target benefits of Artemis, NARC, and TAG (the latter 2 "break" ECM)
Disables integrated C3 system (ie, no indirect target locks) when inside ECM bubble
No longer causes HUD flutter; instead negates info on target range
Prevents info transmitions to friendly players within the ECM bubble
When in counter mode, negates closest ECM carrier within 180m
BAP boosts the ECM/ECCM effects by +0.5

Modules

360 Retention changed to allow for full 360 sensors

Edited by Trauglodyte, 28 December 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[DocBach]

Murphy7, on 28 December 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Two answers for that,

Re: Angel ECM - streak canceling mode is not a separate channel, but folded in to both Stealth and Jamming channels. Angel is better than guardian, without one obsoleting the other, though I do not know when Angel is available in the timeline nor if it has a tonnage/critical space drawback.

Re: stealth armor - 13 - 20 years out if we follow a strict 1:1 ratio to the timeline. Lets burn that bridge when we get to it.

One of the biggest things about Angel ECM is it is actually suppose to be considered in very short circulation as it is experimental technology. If I remember right it was the same weight and size as Guardian, just immensely more expensive.

I'm hoping expansions for this game project us further down the time line. There's a lot of really cool stuff in the late 3050's and 3060's that come out that would be cool to play with, Stealth Armor included. The reason why I would find Stealth Armor to have stealth ability to be acceptable, though, is because it doesn't provide it to the entire team and it has the drawbacks of expense, tons of critical slots taken up, and that it generates waste heat. Maybe the Guardian ECM stealth mode would hide you off mini-map (perhaps just you instead of entire team blanket), but the non-targeting, non-locking deal it has currently has for an entire team is just way too much, for too little.

[Lonestar1771]

StUffz, on 28 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

But are they accessible to public in detail or have you just explained them what they are allowed to hear? If you worked on jammers, you must have at least a certain level of authorization.

I'm just saying they aren't the super tech that you made them out to be. And yes I had a certain level of clearance.

Edited by Lonestar1771, 28 December 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Kai Lae]

The problem with ECM as it is currently is, as many people said, it completely shuts down certian weapon types but has no drawback in of itself. Many people complain about streaks but I notice it mostly because it makes my LRM's potentially useless. The thing that is most interesting to me is that when you look at how TT ECM works, and compare that to what is in MWO, there are a few questions that get asked fairly quickly:

1. Which is a more balanced system?
2. Which is a more functional system?
3. What would work best, long term, in this game?

To me, the ideas behind TT ECM are more inherently balanced, have more funtionality (ghost sensor targets? Yes please), and are better long term for the game. If LRM's and streaks have issues, then they should be addressed as seperate problems, not by having ECM as a missile shield. In addition, beyond ECM, narc, beagle, tag etc - all need to be looked at as well. It's easy to tell when the playerbase thinks something is OP - you may or may not see complaints on the forums, but you suddenly lots of it on the battlefield, weather that be gaussapults, LRM boats right after artemis came out, or now, ECM. PGI would be well served by looking at the things referenced by the OP and using that as a starting point to overhaul ECM as it currently is - as well as working on NARC, TAG etc as well.

[Murphy7]

DocBach, on 28 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

One of the biggest things about Angel ECM is it is actually suppose to be considered in very short circulation as it is experimental technology. If I remember right it was the same weight and size as Guardian, just immensely more expensive.

I'm hoping expansions for this game project us further down the time line. There's a lot of really cool stuff in the late 3050's and 3060's that come out that would be cool to play with, Stealth Armor included. The reason why I would find Stealth Armor to have stealth ability to be acceptable, though, is because it doesn't provide it to the entire team and it has the drawbacks of expense, tons of critical slots taken up, and that it generates waste heat. Maybe the Guardian ECM stealth mode would hide you off mini-map (perhaps just you instead of entire team blanket), but the non-targeting, non-locking deal it has currently has for an entire team is just way too much, for too little.

If you look again, you may notice that my suggestion with regards to the stealth and streak channels was to only effect the mech carrying ECM, not a group. Only the Jamming option has an area of effect.

ECM abilities would and could be better tuned if our existing radar/targeting/LOS system were more robust. I think what we are seeing is in part the weakness of that system, that leads to ineffective BAP and NARC, and overly effective ECM.

[Trauglodyte]

I think that the "stealth" portion was just an added flavor done by the devs because when you play TT, you can see everything on the board. It wasn't until the Null device came in that, assuming you had a 3rd party referee, you could use a seperate grid sheet to plot hidden movement. I never played tech beyond 3055 so I'm really a novice when it comes to how those sorts of things were played.

As for the LRM/Streak jamming, its my opinion that the Dev's realized that, based on the code that they implemented for the integrated C3, they couldn't seperate LOS locks and 3rd party locks. Because of that, they had to have ECM block it all.

I could be wrong but that is how it feels.

[DocBach]

Trauglodyte, on 29 December 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

As for the LRM/Streak jamming, its my opinion that the Dev's realized that, based on the code that they implemented for the integrated C3, they couldn't seperate LOS locks and 3rd party locks. Because of that, they had to have ECM block it all.

I could be wrong but that is how it feels.

I'm not a computer programmer so I can't comment on how technically challenging it would be to make it so only 'Mechs inside the bubble couldn't transmit, but it does feel like they just got lazy.

[SpiralRazor]

TLDR version.


ECM is bull sh ite and I said so before anyone even played with it. The only people defending ECM are the skilless, and the munchkins.

All pieces of mech gear need to be implemented like they were originally intended to do be in the table top game...with only *slight and reasonable* modifications to fit into a Sim.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 29 December 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[DocBach]

SpiralRazor, on 29 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

TLDR version.


ECM is bull sh ite and I said so before anyone even played with it. The only people defending ECM are the skilless, and the munchkins.

All pieces of mech gear need to be implemented like they were originally intended to do be in the table top game...with only *slight and reasonable* modifications to fit into a Sim.

Not really as strongly worded as your first statement - just that expanded uses for all the electronic warfare pieces in the game would make it much more intricate with strategy then what we have now which is stack as much ECM as possible and wait for the enemy to crest whatever major terrain feature of the map so you can focus fire and let your pack of ECM Ravens out.

All pieces of mech gear need to be implemented like they were originally intended to do be in the table top game...with only *slight and reasonable* modifications to fit into a Sim

this part would qualify more as the TL;DR version. All of the effects of EW equipment from Battletech could easily be ported in to MWO without worry of balance, because they've been balanced against each other for the last 20 years. Making their effects real time would make them useful, but not essential, or an I win button.

[DocBach]

Trauglodyte, on 28 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

I'm spitballing here so go easy on me if you see something you don't like:

Sensors-BAP-TAG-NARC-ECM

Sensor range increased to 1000m

BAP

Active sends out a 360 "ping" every 5s at a range of 150% of normal sensors
Detects shut down mechs within the area
Identifies "null information" (ECM) areas and displays info on the map
Shows all units within the range but does not allow for target or info acq
Reveals position to all enemy units within the range but doesn't allow for acq

-Provide 360 degree scanning and targeting within a 150 meter bubble

(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range." Like ECM, Beagle projects a scanning bubble of 5 hexes around it, equating to 150m of range

"Shows all units within the range but does not allow for target or info acq" Is this inferring that Beagle can locate the locations of enemies without LOS? That in itself would make it infinitely more useful. Hell, allowing it to target and transmit the information would be godsend for scouts and spotters, who as of now have to completely expose themselves to the enemy.

[Orzorn]

DocBach, on 29 December 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

-Provide 360 degree scanning and targeting within a 150 meter bubble

(Total Warfare, pg 129): "An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range." Like ECM, Beagle projects a scanning bubble of 5 hexes around it, equating to 150m of range

"Shows all units within the range but does not allow for target or info acq" Is this inferring that Beagle can locate the locations of enemies without LOS? That in itself would make it infinitely more useful. Hell, allowing it to target and transmit the information would be godsend for scouts and spotters, who as of now have to completely expose themselves to the enemy.

I think that would be grand. BAP in its current implementation, is far more useful for missile users than for scouts, due to being able to get a lock on shut down mechs (so SSRM users won't get countered just by shutting down), and the increased lock-on speed as well. The only thing that helps scouts at all is the increased range, but scouts want to stay hidden, so they often aren't going to have LOS to even use that range.

If BAP allowed us to detect ECM, have 360 targeting in the bubble, and target people with impunity within the bubble (even without LOS), that would be a great boon to scouts.

[DocBach]

IronEagle, on 29 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

There is nothing do discuss here, an equipment that disables all modules, a lot of weapon systems, the radar ...
Plus give the ECM-module exclusive to lagshield streak mechs (Raven, Commando) or LRM+Streak boats (D-DC) .. is .. come on....

There's quite a lot beyond ECM in Information Warfare that needs fixing.

[Lonestar1771]

The only thing that actually works as intended is the cash shop.

[Vassago Rain]

SpiralRazor, on 29 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

TLDR version.


ECM is bull sh ite and I said so before anyone even played with it. The only people defending ECM are the skilless, and the munchkins.

All pieces of mech gear need to be implemented like they were originally intended to do be in the table top game...with only *slight and reasonable* modifications to fit into a Sim.

Yes, let's bring back the minimum range on ACs.

[Orzorn]

Vassago Rain, on 29 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yes, let's bring back the minimum range on ACs.

I'd say removing the minimum range on the AC/2 is a slight and reasonable change, at least for the power (and weight) of the item.

[Vassago Rain]

Orzorn, on 29 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I'd say removing the minimum range on the AC/2 is a slight and reasonable change, at least for the power (and weight) of the item.

I say you should go play tabletop if you're so attached to it, and let me have the videogame all to myself.