75 replies to this topic

[PiemasterXL]

Bluetavius, on 29 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

You get no cash bonus for capping, however you do get an XP bonus. In my opinion, that encourages wiping out most mechs and THEN capping

When it's 7 v 0, I tell everyone to find him and rip him a new corn-hole. No stragglers, we must not let him call-in reinforcements.

Edited by PiemasterXL, 29 December 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Orzorn, on 29 December 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

When 6 Assualt mechs are standing on your cap point, you can't exactly stop them without suiciding.

Think about it. You have to stand on the same cap as them to stop them from capping. Standing in the center of a bunch of SRM stalkers and Shotgun D-DCs is a great way to die almost instantly. I know because I had to do so about 3 times last night.

8v8 is almost a total joke with the amount of base rushers. They'll spare no expense using their ECM to hide from you until they're as close to your base as possible, and then rush right onto it. While we're looking around the map trying to find them, they're hiding as much as they can. If your scout does find them, they're likely to die quickly, or we rush back as fast as we can in our mechs, but then they've probably already gotten onto our base with almost 8 people, some of them with cap speed modules.

This kind of crap happened game after game, and I personally blame the lack of usable missiles on it. Previously, if some team tried this 770 or 800 ton crap, you'd have missile barraged them to death from a safe distance, not to mention you'd have SEEN them on your radar. But with ECM acting like it does right now, that "slow" (you can make an Atlas move at average speeds if you put a very large engine and have speed tweek) team is pretty much a catch 22. If you try to fight them, they'll have maybe a hundred or more tons over you (unless you want to pull the same crap). If they're on your base, they have so much armor than anything less than your entire team being there and being on the cap won't cut it (or else the one poor guy trying to stop them will pop almost instantly). You can't sit back and shoot at them because you're going to have to core out hundreds of points of armor between all of them, while the counter ticks at blazing speed.

Its a very tough team to beat. If you can catch them in the open you can usually wipe the floor with them if you focus targets well enough, but catching an ECM team skulking around the map can be a difficult thing, especially without losing a guy or two first due to them face planting into the team when they round a corner.

Besides that, I see all of this as useless stat padding. We get more money than them and all they get is a crummy "Victory!", like it means anything at all.

But hey, if they want to play Statwarrior Online, let them wallow in their boredom.

If you LET 6 Assault Mechs get to your base... Maybe this game ain't for you. Oh wait! I've been one of those 6 Assault Mechs. WHat worked v us was to... call for Support, "6 Atlas on Base... Help, now." Then wait for your team to group up. Yeah yeah Cap accelerator! If your team moved maybe 500M from the base with scouts doing their job, You'd have a force that Might be able to push them off. But it's the fight you want right? Not necessarily the win?

As for in 8man... And you didn't decide once to stay close and actually fight over possession of your base? Again the only one at fault for your loss is your team. You didn't fight for what is yours. SO if you are going to give the OpFor your base, why shouldn't they take the generous gift you have offered.

Missiles? Dude they are standing still on your base. Find a LoS and blast them into action! Don't blame the equipment for YOUR failure.

All I have seen is excuses for how YOU failed to defend your base from capture. You know what the enemy will probably do and STILL tell yourself, I don't wanna do fight that way. YET you say you wanna fight?

Stop trying to get the DEVs to do your jobs for you.

Main body stay together and wait for the scouts to report.
Scouts find the enemy.
Main body plus Scouts engage the enemy.

This beats Base Rushers, and give you the fight you say you want. Try it. You'll like it, or you'll die horribly because you were rolled by a superior group of players. *Shrug*

But stop blaming the "rush" cause you can't defend.

[SwanseaAxeman]

For the sake of choice I would like to see straight up TDM in MWO to compliment the two other modes.

Edited by SwanseaAxeman, 29 December 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Irreverence]

Kousagi, on 29 December 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Thing is, They NEED a base cap thing in a TDM style match, which is basically what assault is. 'Cause if they didn't, then say losing team has 1 light mech left alive, he can just run off and hide in a corner of the map shut down.

They could just reduce the time limit on assault. They must have the data by now to see how long most matches last. Fifteen minutes is just an arbitrary number anyway.

[Alex Novian]

Win = +200xp
Cap = +75xp
cap assist = +50xp

and with 25 Mechs I could care less about coin. 'but but but you have founders mechs!'.. and used them to Master and moved on.... 'But, you have premium time!'... not since they reset it, i haven't activated it. coin is easy to come by with R&R gone(for now), just play and it'll build up.


PS...

Ecm is OP
Stalker isn't a Chicken Walker fix it's legs.

[Jock Blaine]

And another brilliant thread: You don't play the game like I want to, so you must be stooopid.
First of all, for all those complaining about base capping not having a reward, you are wrong: It actually has a reward far more valuable than those lousy c-bills: XP.
Second: I play for the win, there are several tactical advantages to base capping which have already been described. Your choice to play differently is exactly that: Your choice. I make a different choice. You don't have to like it, but you will have to learn to live with it, because that is my choice for playing this game. And it doesn't matter if you are in or against my team, that's the way I play. (Unless, if you are in my team, you have a brilliant other plan. You can always speak up and I will always listen to the team channel.)

[Joseph Mallan]

SwanseaAxeman, on 29 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

For the sake of choice I would like to see straight up TDM in MWO to compliment the two other modes.

Yes cause we need another TDM.

I understand your point but many time the scenarios we have now just run as TDM as is. There are no consequences for failing to complete the mission. Assault should have a penalty for not capturing the base(the primary objective).

[Taizan]

Just yesterday I saw 2/3 of my random team wander off through the tunnel for a "classical" fast cap. I guess I was the only one that wanted to have a fight and make some more c-bills. It happens, it is a win but its completely pointless.

[SwanseaAxeman]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Yes cause we need another TDM.

I understand your point but many time the scenarios we have now just run as TDM as is. There are no consequences for failing to complete the mission. Assault should have a penalty for not capturing the base(the primary objective).

I like Assault mode, but I would also like TDM so people who just want to brawl without having to cap can do so. It shouldn't be that difficult to remove the bases and just let it go to the last mech standing. Then at least you know that people who play Assault want to defend and capture the bases and those who don't will just go TDM.

Edited by SwanseaAxeman, 29 December 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Vassago Rain, on 29 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

>streakcats.

I see no 100 tons of skulls in that pic. Yes, there are two Unawesomes but the rest is just rubbish. RUBBISH!!!

Stone Wall, on 29 December 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Why are people base rushing? Is this why....because they aren't bringing loadouts designed to fight other mechs? Hasn't the reward of base capturing been reduced to almost zero?

People base cap because it forces you to do one of three things. You can solo rtb and take your chances of killing the capper or getting killed. You can take multiples to rtb, whack the capper, and take your chances on your teammates getting killed. Or, you can ignore the capper and hope that you can kill their team with numbers in your favor while having enough time to rtb to kill the capper.

I will say that since they removed the bonus for capture, the game has devolved into Total Death Match, whether you want it to be or not. Granted, this is coming from the PUG view point. But, you have to assume that it is you and 7 idiots which means that if you want to win, you can't afford to handicap your team. As it is, most people are too stupid to realize that Conquest is about resource control and not TDM. But nope, most teams don't cap anything and just brawl it out. "Hey look, I drive a Hunchback. I can rush in solo and take on an Atlas and win, right? RIGHT?" Ugh

[Orzorn]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

If you LET 6 Assault Mechs get to your base... Maybe this game ain't for you. Oh wait! I've been one of those 6 Assault Mechs. WHat worked v us was to... call for Support, "6 Atlas on Base... Help, now." Then wait for your team to group up. Yeah yeah Cap accelerator! If your team moved maybe 500M from the base with scouts doing their job, You'd have a force that Might be able to push them off. But it's the fight you want right? Not necessarily the win?

Did you not read word I said? 6 assaults on your base is NOT something you survive trying to stop. They WILL cap faster than any of your mechs can return to base. You will try to step on to the base to stop their insanely fast cap, and then you will die in under a second. It isn't something you can just stop on your own, yet it isn't something you can wait on more people to get there to do. I'm a Dragon. I run nearly 90 km/h and am the third fastest mech on my team next to our two scouts. Besides that, everyone else goes 64 or less. They are not going to be able to even get from the large capital building in River City back to the base before they finish the cap.

We send scouts the opposite way we intend to cross, and yet there are STILL times where they manage to get around us. Either that, or they move with such vigor that even when the scout sees them they're already almost to our base. Why would they stop moving to look around when the purpose is to stand on the base?

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As for in 8man... And you didn't decide once to stay close and actually fight over possession of your base? Again the only one at fault for your loss is your team. You didn't fight for what is yours. SO if you are going to give the OpFor your base, why shouldn't they take the generous gift you have offered.

No, you're right, and that's exactly what we started doing. I just can't stand that we have to play watch-the-paint-dry online. It also greatly devalues speed on your mechs when you're forced to stand and wait for the inevitable 8 man durp squad of assaults.

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Missiles? Dude they are standing still on your base. Find a LoS and blast them into action! Don't blame the equipment for YOUR failure.

Once again a failure in comprehension. No manner of damage will be able to get rid of 6-8 assaults standing on your base before they complete a cap. It takes about, I'd say, maybe 12 or so seconds flat for them to complete a cap. You don't have time to do anything but try to get and stand on the base. Killing one at a time will still take 5 or so seconds at max killing speed. They WILL cap before you can disperse them.

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All I have seen is excuses for how YOU failed to defend your base from capture. You know what the enemy will probably do and STILL tell yourself, I don't wanna do fight that way. YET you say you wanna fight?

Stop trying to get the DEVs to do your jobs for you.

Main body stay together and wait for the scouts to report.
Scouts find the enemy.
Main body plus Scouts engage the enemy.

This beats Base Rushers, and give you the fight you say you want. Try it. You'll like it, or you'll die horribly because you were rolled by a superior group of players. *Shrug*

But stop blaming the "rush" cause you can't defend.

We've already been implementing strategies to overcome this.

Besides that, at what point did I "try to get the devs to do my jobs for me"? That's some serious projecting. I asked for an ECM nerf and that's it. I haven't even asked for a damned weight restriction. Why? Because I don't need one, I just need the weapons back that used to be used to effectively fight off these 100 ton brutes.

But hey, like I said, if you want to play capwarrior online, feel free to play one of the most spectacularly boring experiences that I've ever had the misfortune of being a part of.

Edited by Orzorn, 29 December 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Taizan, on 29 December 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Just yesterday I saw 2/3 of my random team wander off through the tunnel for a "classical" fast cap. I guess I was the only one that wanted to have a fight and make some more c-bills. It happens, it is a win but its completely pointless.

Sometimes the guys are working on a flanking maneuver.

[Orzorn]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 December 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Sometimes the guys are working on a flanking maneuver.

I don't like large flanks through the crevasse, too tight and close. If they catch you on the exit then you'll be kill boxed to hell and back.

[VictimEN]

A base rush can usually go a lot faster than a big brawl. Even if one game doesn't provide the same cash reward as killing everyone, getting more games during the same period is going to make up for at least some of the slack.

[Red squirrel]

Streak CATs are funny right now.
I either do 4+ or 0 kills (depending which team has more ECM)

It is horrible that the matchmaker seems to cluster ECM mechs on one team.
I often see 3 Jenners on one team and 3 ECM light on the other.

[Joseph Mallan]

Orzorn, on 29 December 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Did you not read word I said? 6 assaults on your base is NOT something you survive trying to stop. They WILL cap faster than any of your mechs can return to base. You will try to step on to the base to stop their insanely fast cap, and then you will die in under a second. It isn't something you can just stop on your own, yet it isn't something you can wait on more people to get there to do. I'm a Dragon. I run nearly 90 km/h and am the third fastest mech on my team next to our two scouts. Besides that, everyone else goes 64 or less. They are not going to be able to even get from the large capital building in River City back to the base before they finish the cap.

Sometimes dying for the teams victory needs to happen. Or are you opposed to being a posthumous hero? Or you wait for your forces to gather. But my point still stands. If 6 MECHS that max speed is 64 KpH caps you, You fialed to guard your base right.

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We send scouts the opposite way we intend to cross, and yet there are STILL times where they manage to get around us. Either that, or they move with such vigor that even when the scout sees them they're already almost to our base. Why would they stop moving to look around when the purpose is to stand on the base?

We are not talking about what the enemy does. That cannot be controlled. It's what YOU are doing that is wrong.

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No, you're right, and that's exactly what we started doing. I just can't stand that we have to play watch-the-paint-dry online. It also greatly devalues speed on your mechs when you're forced to stand and wait for the inevitable 8 man durp squad of assaults.

There are several Maps that give you either a vantage point or cover and concealment for trapping the enemy trying to CAP. Caustic Valley. The Hills behind the refinery... great place to overwatch your base. The enemy HAS to come under your guns to Cap.

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Once again a failure in comprehension. No manner of damage will be able to get rid of 6-8 assaults standing on your base before they complete a cap. It takes about, I'd say, maybe 12 or so seconds flat for them to complete a cap. You don't have time to do anything but try to get and stand on the base. Killing one at a time will still take 5 or so seconds at max killing speed. They WILL cap before you can disperse them.

Horse Shet! That is a loser talking. Again if your team is doing its job correctly you will be able to route 5-6 Assaults on a tiny square. We have done it. It's not pretty, but it is that fight you keep saying you want.

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We've already been implementing strategies to overcome this.

Good luck. I hope you share some of the successes for others.

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Besides that, at what point did I "try to get the devs to do my jobs for me"? That's some serious projecting. I asked for an ECM nerf and that's it. I haven't even asked for a damned weight restriction. Why? Because I don't need one, I just need the weapons back that used to be used to effectively fight off these 100 ton brutes.

Every time someone whines about Base Cap it is a hope to end the scurge of alternative thinking. I have seen LRMs make Atlas scatter like ants in a rain! try using them on those stationary targets instead of complaining.

Quote

But hey, like I said, if you want to play capwarrior online, feel free to play one of the most spectacularly boring experiences that I've ever had the misfortune of being a part of.

I love how everyone uses their favorite catch phraseOnLine! I wanna play whatever option presents itself to me and my team. If you are in my way to the Cap I have the opportunity to crush you like the bug you are. If you don't get in my way I can take your stuff with impunity. Flexibility is the trademark of a Marine. I bring that trademark with me into how I play my games(once a Marine always a Marine). How you impose yourself will dictate whether you live or die. You cannot shame me for your failure to stop me from performing the primary mission. Taking your Base or Collecting rocks! Killing you is my bonus! Your shame is yours, own it or fight it. Don't make excuses.

[Orzorn]

Look Joseph, I'm not saying we can't beat them, because when Alpha Assault and Sigma Lance are both on, we wipe the floor with every team we come across (seriously, we have a counter going against some of these corps and we're undefeated against many of them, even when we did timed drops). Alpha Assault are all max speed assault mechs, and Sigma Lance are all long range alpha striking machines. Combine the two and you have a team comp that can easily take out base rushers, simply by virtue of getting to the base faster than they can and taking out enemy mechs in under a few seconds a piece.

The issues is that unless you set up your team to fight a rush team composition, your chances of succeeding is slim. They WILL power through any poor scouts you have standing in their way, they WILL get to your base EVEN if you're reacting (most of these teams we'd be firing upon and they would just power right on to our base), and they WILL force you to fight them on the base, right in the middle of their furball, or you WILL lose to a cap. Like I said, its a Catch 22. You either try to fight them more on fair grounds and they'll finish the cap before you can kill them, or you get in their face and die quickly. you can make the argument for getting in their face all you want, but many team compositions would have to exclude mediums and most lights to be able to pull that off.

The point is that, to fight this one composition, you have to set your team up for it every single time. If you aren't set up to fight 6+ assaults in a tiny cramped location, then you're likely to lose. No ifs ands or buts. When we've got Alpha Assault and Sigma Lances on, we can beat just about anything. Without that, however, and we have a hard time. This is a metagame domianted by Ravens and Assaults. If you don't specifically tailor your team every time to be able to do those things I mentioned, you're going to struggle. The point is, currently, you win in mechlab and team comp before you even have to worry about winning with skill or tactics. Since its always "rush to the enemy base", there isn't much variance in it. You are going to have to sit and watch paint dry, wait for them to show their ugly mugs, and then get into a fight. Anything else and its 6+ Assaults squatting on your red square.

It just kills me to tell my guys that they can't play certain mechs just because the metagame is so skewed against the poor things.

Edited by Orzorn, 29 December 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Jacmac]

Red squirrel, on 29 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Streak CATs are funny right now.
I either do 4+ or 0 kills (depending which team has more ECM)

It is horrible that the matchmaker seems to cluster ECM mechs on one team.
I often see 3 Jenners on one team and 3 ECM light on the other.

Streakcats in a 4-man trash pick-up game is a gamble; Streakcats in an 8v8 is suicide, unless you're playing a bunch of guys that aren't really interested in ECM mechs.

[SpiralRazor]

Vassago Rain, on 29 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

>streakcats.

In a one on one turning fight, a streak cat will nearly always defeat a SRM cat....

So no..<

Orzorn, on 29 December 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Look Joseph, I'm not saying we can't beat them, because when Alpha Assault and Sigma Lance are both on, we wipe the floor with every team we come across (seriously, we have a counter going against some of these corps and we're undefeated against many of them, even when we did timed drops). Alpha Assault are all max speed assault mechs, and Sigma Lance are all long range alpha striking machines. Combine the two and you have a team comp that can easily take out base rushers, simply by virtue of getting to the base faster than they can and taking out enemy mechs in under a few seconds a piece.

The issues is that unless you set up your team to fight a rush team composition, your chances of succeeding is slim. They WILL power through any poor scouts you have standing in their way, they WILL get to your base EVEN if you're reacting (most of these teams we'd be firing upon and they would just power right on to our base), and they WILL force you to fight them on the base, right in the middle of their furball, or you WILL lose to a cap. Like I said, its a Catch 22. You either try to fight them more on fair grounds and they'll finish the cap before you can kill them, or you get in their face and die quickly. you can make the argument for getting in their face all you want, but many team compositions would have to exclude mediums and most lights to be able to pull that off.

The point is that, to fight this one composition, you have to set your team up for it every single time. If you aren't set up to fight 6+ assaults in a tiny cramped location, then you're likely to lose. No ifs ands or buts. When we've got Alpha Assault and Sigma Lances on, we can beat just about anything. Without that, however, and we have a hard time. This is a metagame domianted by Ravens and Assaults. If you don't specifically tailor your team every time to be able to do those things I mentioned, you're going to struggle. The point is, currently, you win in mechlab and team comp before you even have to worry about winning with skill or tactics. Since its always "rush to the enemy base", there isn't much variance in it. You are going to have to sit and watch paint dry, wait for them to show their ugly mugs, and then get into a fight. Anything else and its 6+ Assaults squatting on your red square.

It just kills me to tell my guys that they can't play certain mechs just because the metagame is so skewed against the poor things.

We had much the same conversation last night with the 25th MM- Marik guys.

Most mechs just arent viable in 8 man...like...at all..

[Orzorn]

SpiralRazor, on 29 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Most mechs just arent viable in 8 man...like...at all..

Its basically:
Raven 3L (because if the variant doesn't have ECM it ain't worth taking!)
Atlas D-DC (because if the variant doesn't have ECM it ain't worth taking!)
Cataphract (plenty of dakka to keep up, and all those bullets are bound to eventually cause a small amount of damage perhaps but maybe not to the lag shielding Ravens)

Maybe take:
Cicada (ECM, but they don't have SSRMs)
Catapult (pretty much limited to K2 or artemis SRM)
Stalker (might be able to pull off LRM boat or SRM boat, but the lack of ECM hurts this mech in the metagame)
Commando (ECM is nice, as are 3 SSRMs if you can get a lock, but they're squishy buggers)

Other than that, its pretty much a crapshoot. I play a Dragon and can pull off 500+ damage per game (if I'm in my preferred build, which I'm not right now due to trying to grind out XP for master), but I recognize that if I played one of the above listed viable mechs, I'd probably due that much better, because speed is so devalued right now what with the base capping. I just feel sorry for the Hunchbacks and Centurions. Poor ********.

And the Awesome is just an entirely different thread.