15 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

Lets be honest here, they're pretty useless. Sure I rarely see a 5N with 3x AC/2 but that's just to troll around as it's nowhere as effective as putting in lasers and SRMs instead.
Putting more than 2 ballistics in a dragon severely hinders the ability to carry other equipment or even a big engine for high speeds, at which it's actually the most effective.

Put in extra missile/energy slots instead to compensate. I guess 1 energy into 1N and 1 energy, 1 missile slot into 5N.
Sure that would make them identical considering hard point numbers, but if you place the energy hard points differently people will play the 2 according to preference. Some may want to snipe with 2 shoulder weapons or do precision shots with 2 arm weapons.

Also, I don't see how this wouldn't go a long way in actually making dragons an option over the only 5 ton heavier, but hard point wise far superior, catapult.

I used to play dragons, all 3 of em on master and to me it is a rather fun mech, but it's not a mech I'd pilot in competitive matches like 8v8 due to the only useful variant being the 1C.

[Phades]

The x3 ballistic on the hunchback makes no sense as well, or for any other machine for that matter which places them all in the same spot for the balance of "total hard point number". This gets away from arguments around build style and hard point location as well which are equally valid in addition to addressing certain weapon systems that are just too costly for what they should be (after thought weapons), or how they are actually implemented (flamer/mgun).

[Elder Thorn]

i loved my 3x AC/2 Dragon, and it WAS effective just had to play it different, and it still ran 89 kph, i was fine with that.
It had problems on close range, not sure why, just didn't manage to hit anything, maybe my fault, but it generaly works with other mechs.
In the end, it was a pretty long range direct fire support mech, that was absolutly able to make an impact.

But well.. in the end i like that one with 1 single slot more, though i think it's a question of personal likes and dislikes.

[DeadlyNerd]

I don't know who you've been playing against but the last 3x AC/2 dragon I saw got shredded in a matter of seconds cause no one was afraid to just stand still and take aim.

Reason why you couldn't hit anything is the convergence vs netcode. Even if you did hit anything the dps you would do wouldn't even scratch them.
If a 4X with 4xAC/2 is not effective anymore then the 3xAC/2 dragon is even less effective.

Also dps wise, AC/2 has been nerfed and if I say it's 4dps I'm saying a lot. That means you're doing 6dps in a straight up brawl with 3 of them. 2 ER large lasers and SRM6 are more effective than that, even at longer range.

On topic. I'd like to hear from the devs the reason why they put in extra ballistic slots despite the TT dragon being a single ballistic slot mech.

[Roughneck45]

They would still be inferior to the 1-C.

May as well keep the variety.

[Wildstreak]

Elder Thorn, on 30 December 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

i loved my 3x AC/2 Dragon, and it WAS effective just had to play it different, and it still ran 89 kph, i was fine with that.
It had problems on close range, not sure why, just didn't manage to hit anything, maybe my fault, but it generaly works with other mechs.
In the end, it was a pretty long range direct fire support mech, that was absolutly able to make an impact.

But well.. in the end i like that one with 1 single slot more, though i think it's a question of personal likes and dislikes.

AC2s and AC5s have a short range where they are rarely effective like the PPC and LRMs unless the designers changed something. These ACs were meant to use starting from long range to wear down an opponent as they got closer, the AC2 can reach farther than any LRM rack and the AC5 comes close. I will never understand why I see a player stack multiple AC2s or AC5s and constantly try to close range brawl with them.

[Elder Thorn]

Merchant, on 31 December 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

AC2s and AC5s have a short range where they are rarely effective like the PPC and LRMs unless the designers changed something. These ACs were meant to use starting from long range to wear down an opponent as they got closer, the AC2 can reach farther than any LRM rack and the AC5 comes close. I will never understand why I see a player stack multiple AC2s or AC5s and constantly try to close range brawl with them.

yeah, as i said, it was a long range fire support mech...
i have no problems wielding a Gaus Rifle on a Dragon in close range combat, that is why i am surprised that i hit close to nothing with the AC/2

DeadlyNerd, on 31 December 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

I don't know who you've been playing against but the last 3x AC/2 dragon I saw got shredded in a matter of seconds cause no one was afraid to just stand still and take aim.

Reason why you couldn't hit anything is the convergence vs netcode. Even if you did hit anything the dps you would do wouldn't even scratch them.
If a 4X with 4xAC/2 is not effective anymore then the 3xAC/2 dragon is even less effective.

Also dps wise, AC/2 has been nerfed and if I say it's 4dps I'm saying a lot. That means you're doing 6dps in a straight up brawl with 3 of them. 2 ER large lasers and SRM6 are more effective than that, even at longer range.

On topic. I'd like to hear from the devs the reason why they put in extra ballistic slots despite the TT dragon being a single ballistic slot mech.

why would it die faster than any other dragon?
the convergence... well yes... see above, i have no problems to hit with the gaus.

Edited by Elder Thorn, 31 December 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Elder Thorn, on 31 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

why would it die faster than any other dragon?
the convergence... well yes... see above, i have no problems to hit with the gaus.

Dragons get shredded whichever variant they were. I'm just saying that 3xAC/2 dragon has no defensive measures in close range. Get a light on him and he's pretty much screwed.

Roughneck45, on 31 December 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

They would still be inferior to the 1-C.

May as well keep the variety.

1 more missile slot each, pretty balanced. CTF 2x has the same tradeoff against CTF 1x. Most people slap SSRM2s in there so that means 100% more SSRM2s.


And be honest here. Say it's an 8v8 match and you picked 1N or 5N. Would you really be aiding your group with those 3 AC/2s(or 2 on 1N). If anything, you'll get hit by LRMs and PPCs the very first moment you exit the cover to try and snipe.
Next thing is you'll see lights circling you as you can't do jack with those 3 AC/2s against them. Might as well run away? NOPE, you're slower than them and might even accidentally run into a bigger m.o.f.o(that is NOT a curse word if you don't mean it like that). Whom you'll what, tickle to death?

So in conclusion, instead of being useful with only 1 ballistic, preferably AC10 or even a gauss you're being useless and running around like a headless chicken with 3 AC/2s, ending the match with little over 200 damage. I'm pretty sure that extra energy slot would've helped alot more than the AC/2.
Lets not forget that an ER LL needs 5 tons which leaves 3 tons for heatsinks considering AC/2 requires at least 2 tons of ammo to deal effective damage.

Not in the 8v8? PuGs maybe? Unless your team is generally high skilled players against newbies, your absence from team fights due to sniping will result in your team becoming salvage. I'm sure that atlas that just alphad 3 of your teammates to dust wouldn't have done that if you alphad him with 3 lasers and 2 SRM4 packs in the back.

MWO matches turn into a brawl sooner or later and if you try to escape the brawl you'll get harassed by light mechs, and eventually killed, or you'll end up being completely useless standing in some remote place on the map, trying to land those snipe shots that deal 2 damage each.

EDIT: Before anyone attempts the "but no one is complaining so it's fine" line. Remember that the dragon is the least played mech.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 31 December 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Difference is 1 Gauss shot does more than double damage compared to 3 AC2s. 1 AC10 would have been my choice, 3 AC2s cost a lot of tons, 1 AC10 does more damage for the same heat, extra tons saved can be put into some more ammo and whatever else you want that fits. If they did not change it, AC2s and AC5s have a range where if someone gets close to you, it should be harder to hit them, that is why they are no good for close in brawls:
- Minimum range penalties.
- 1 of another weapon will do more damage.
- Take up too much tonnage.

DeadlyNerd, on 31 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

EDIT: Before anyone attempts the "but no one is complaining so it's fine" line. Remember that the dragon is the least played mech.

According to the poll I posted and from what I have seen, that is the Awesome being least played, I have seen more Dragons than Awesomes.

[DeadlyNerd]

Merchant, on 31 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

According to the poll I posted and from what I have seen, that is the Awesome being least played, I have seen more Dragons than Awesomes.

Funny, I tend to see more awesomes, apart from the trial dragons which some poor soul is playing cause he didn't know what he was getting into. Guess they're even then, as in almost extinct from the battlefield.

[Wildstreak]

Possibly if you are playing other than PUG, all the PUGing I have done I have not only seen Dragons, I even saw Fang and Flame.

[Der Basilisk]

I like to play fast mechs, so the Dragon is an obvious choice. I don´t know, why it has 3 ballistic hardpoints, but back, when i had it (before the last reset) i simply put 3 MGs in it and paired them with twin Streaks or SRM 4s. Add this to some large lasers or ppcs and the biggest xl-engine you can find and you have an excellent mech for harrassing. I admit that today i prefer the CN9-D over it, but i sometimes miss it because of the higher armor value it can carry.

Has anyone ever asked why there isn´t a Grand Dragon around?

[Kobura]

Unless something happened to the AC2's .5-second refire time, or their 2-pts of damage, they're doing 4DPS when firing.

That's one of the very, very highest in the game...

[Saevel]

Quote

Unless something happened to the AC2's .5-second refire time, or their 2-pts of damage, they're doing 4DPS when firing.

That's one of the very, very highest in the game...

First time posting, long time BT / MW fan.

AC/2's are designed as an AA weapon and a long range support fire weapon. It didn't get really good until they made the Ultra varient that could turn out even more bullets. Also (U)AC/2's are a critical seeking weapon, each shot has a chance at striking a critical and when your unloading them 4 ~ 8 shots per second your gonna hit something vital. I'm hoping they "eventually" introduce the RAC varients.

The real issue is the same that many other builds face, that long range engagement isn't very practicle when everthing turns into a 250~300m brawl. Primary advantage of the AC2 is it's long range coupled with incrediably high fire rate and lack of heat generation. I would really enjoy seeing maps and game modes that support 1K+ engagement distances.

[DeadlyNerd]

Kobura, on 01 January 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Unless something happened to the AC2's .5-second refire time, or their 2-pts of damage, they're doing 4DPS when firing.

That's one of the very, very highest in the game...

Actually I don't know whether that last patch increased the weapon reload above .5, or fixed it as if it was lower that .5 pre patch.
Bottom line is that if you get into 120m you'll be doing 2 dps tops to a single body part, that is if you don't hit any other body parts or miss the mech completely.
And as I already explained, sniping with a single AC/2, or even 3, is being useless, hence you don't see any more 4x AC/2 phracts.
edit: or you see them and they end up being bottom feeders.

Der Basilisk, on 01 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I don´t know, why it has 3 ballistic hardpoints, but back, when i had it (before the last reset) i simply put 3 MGs in it and paired them with twin Streaks or SRM 4s.

That's just it, put in MGs. If you want to fully, and efficiently, utilize all hard points in the dragon (which is how a mech should be constructed,dnno why people tend to ignore the missile or ballistic HPs on some builds) you'll be putting in MGs, one of the least desired weapons.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 01 January 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Kobura]

Just confirmed AC2s fire every .5 seconds and still inflict 2 damage. Still one of the best weapons in the game.