11 replies to this topic

[Orgasmo]

Would these changes to information warfare modules balance game mechanics? I thought I should throw out these ideas and see what you guys think.

TAG

• You will not need to hold down any button to activate TAG. Once it’s equipped, it will activated
  
• Create a small bracket window besides the cross hair when equipped, targets within the bracket are considered painted by the module.
  
• Your base heat level will rise 5% due to its use.

http://s8.postimage....qx1/Example.jpg



NARC

• Increase NARC missile range to 300m instead of 270m.
  
• Attaches to target and active for 30 seconds instead of 20 seconds
  
• ECM bubble no longer cancels NARC, with the exception of the mech with ECM module.

Beagle Active Probe

• Increase targeting range of unpowered mechs from 120m to 200m
  
• Allows targeting of ECM equipped enemies within 300m if your mech has a BAP.

ECM

• A single ECM running in counter mode will counter enemy ECM units on a 1 to 2 basis. You will need a third ECM module in the area if you want to maintain disruption effects.

Edited by Orgasmo, 01 January 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Vermaxx]

The proposal seems too good. It gives you three things to invalidate one. Granted, ECM is both too common and too good, but this seems like too much.

TAG SHOULD be easier to use, it is kind of unforgiving with being such a "small" beam and having to hit the target instead of be within a finder window.

NARC needs something, at the very least it needs to continue transmitting if people lose line of sight. Being able to work INSIDE ecm seems a little cheesy. The system's weight and terrible ammo ratio are balancing factors, but it will still be rarely used and therefore the changes become somewhat irrelevant.

I'm fine with BAP increasing lock on range for shutdown mechs, but I dunno about it locking onto ecm enemies. It's certainly better than NARC tho, and I could support it as long as it didn't work INSIDE ecm.

ECM running in counter mode shutting off two other people means there will be more of them, not less. And since there can't really be more than 8, the change won't make much difference other than everyone is now back to zero ecm.

[EvilCow]

Good points but I would make BAP operate permanently like an ECM in counter mode for the carrier only and keep the 1-1 ratio for disrupt/counter (the current implementation). The two devices would be more balanced:
ECM - Counter for area OR disrupt.
BAP - Counter for the carrier AND extended sensors range.

In addition ECM should make lock harder even when disrupted, for example 50% more time to lock, halved lock retention time.TAG should generate some heat while activated and be activated with a toggle, it is too easily abused now.

[Orgasmo]

Vermaxx, on 01 January 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The proposal seems too good. It gives you three things to invalidate one. Granted, ECM is both too common and too good, but this seems like too much.

It's not meant to invalidate ECM. It's to make NARC, BAP and TAG useful as part of information warfare, instead of ECM rules all. ECM will still be quite useful, but it will face viable counters.

Quote

TAG SHOULD be easier to use, it is kind of unforgiving with being such a "small" beam and having to hit the target instead of be within a finder window.

Maintaining a tag on a moving target, especially a fast light from distance, is very difficult. Replacing that with a narrow scan angle target paint will make it useful.

Quote

NARC needs something, at the very least it needs to continue transmitting if people lose line of sight. Being able to work INSIDE ecm seems a little cheesy. The system's weight and terrible ammo ratio are balancing factors, but it will still be rarely used and therefore the changes become somewhat irrelevant.

NARC weights 3 tons, and only has 6 shots per ton of ammo. The point is it should enhance and broadcast target signature, even inside ECM bubble. Now that I think about it, I think there should be an inner and outer bubble to ECM. 180m is the maximum radius of the outer bubble, where NARC will work through. 90m radius would be the inner bubble, which would jam the NARC.

Quote

I'm fine with BAP increasing lock on range for shutdown mechs, but I dunno about it locking onto ecm enemies. It's certainly better than NARC tho, and I could support it as long as it didn't work INSIDE ecm.

BAP enhances a sensor's strength, thus I think it should be able to target ECM equipped enemies if they are close enough. Of course, outside of 300m, you still can't target them.

Quote

ECM running in counter mode shutting off two other people means there will be more of them, not less. And since there can't really be more than 8, the change won't make much difference other than everyone is now back to zero ecm.

I think it will encourage people to use other information warfare modules other than ECM.

[Codejack]

I don't think that it's quite enough; ECM is WAY too powerful as it is and needs to be balanced on its own.

For a comparison, why does BAP, which weighs the same and takes up the same room, do so much less than ECM? How does ECM cancel TAG inside the bubble? IT'S A LASER!

TAG and BAP should work inside the bubble, and BAP should be able to target the ECM mech, too, and should cancel at least part of ECM's detection range decrease; I couldn't care less about detecting shut down mechs at longer range. ECM is the problem.

[Black Ivan]

PGI should simply use the tabletop rules for ECM.

[Gen Kumon]

Black Ivan, on 01 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

PGI should simply use the tabletop rules for ECM.

Pretty much this. The reason ECM is so overpowering is that on top of countering all the other EW gear, taking out your minimap at close range, and the like...is that it also prevents all locks at all beyond close range, making you largely immune to LRMs as well, which was NEVER a feature of the Guardian ECM in any source I'm aware of.

[DocBach]

ECM needs to defeat Narc and Beagle, but both of those systems need buffs while certain aspects of ECM need to be scaled down.

Narc does need to continue to broadcast target location when LOS is lost - the whole point of Narc was it allowed for indirect fire without LOS, in this game it does nothing but act like a TAG laser or Artemis. It also needs an increase in ammunition per ton, as every other weapon system received a boost way back over the summer.

Beagle has all kinds of cool functions it should have but doesn't. Coolest to me is that it provides a 150 meter, 360 degree bubble that can detect anything within it, regardless of line of sight. Imagine a spotter being able to hide behind a hill using cover yet still spot for you? It also can detect ECM jamming, so as a soft counter perhaps Beagle units should be able to detect the boundaries of an ECM field.

ECM needs to lose the whole target block and radar stealth field. There may be real world implications that ECM works like that, but this is a game, and this game is based on a system that has been balanced over several decades for the sake of fun, not realism.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Here's the reason ECM does more than BAP. I'm going to use RL counterparts because missiles, BAP and ECM are based on them.

So a radar suite (which is what is originally equipped) in a mech detects the opposition. BAP is simply an enhancement that allows further amplification and additional features. With ECM's job of not only countering radar it also limits BAP, which now should only show it's being jammed and the general location that jamming is coming from. Since missiles are dependent upon the mounted platforms radar to initially find targets for them to be guided to. Their mech is providing them with incorrect information, to which the only true way to get accurate information is to get LOS on the intended target.

Since Streaks use LOS to lock onto a target then Streaks should not be effected by ECM at all. TAG also uses LOS, but that LOS comes from a different platform (which should be a scouts role). Missiles that can use the TAG to guide themselves into a target are not depending on the return targeting data given to them by radar, but by a directional "beacon" given to them by the TAG laser.

Amended: if the TAG lasers signal is within the ECM AoE, then that information isn't broadcast to any missile platform correctly unless the TAG laser and the missiles are on the same platform.

NARC is a non-LOS beacon that should allow missiles to lock on to. But according to TT Rules that beacon signal is blocked by ECM.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 01 January 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Gristle]

Codejack, on 01 January 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

... How does ECM cancel TAG inside the bubble? IT'S A LASER!

TAG and BAP should work inside the bubble, and BAP should be able to target the ECM mech, too, and should cancel at least part of ECM's detection range decrease; I couldn't care less about detecting shut down mechs at longer range. ECM is the problem.

ECM doesn't counter the TAG Laser, it counters the C3 computer in the TAGing mech.

Black Ivan, on 01 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

PGI should simply use the tabletop rules for ECM.

They can't because they have strayed too far from TT in regards to how targeting and other sensor systems works in the game.

KuruptU4Fun, on 01 January 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Here's the reason ECM does more than BAP. I'm going to use RL counterparts because missiles, BAP and ECM are based on them.

So a radar suite (which is what is originally equipped) in a mech detects the opposition....

No they aren't, at least in TT. Default is no radar or C3 computer. BAP is radar in TT, alllowing targeting of mechs without LOS, and should do they same thing in MWO.

KuruptU4Fun, on 01 January 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

BAP is simply an enhancement that allows further amplification and additional features. With ECM's job of not only countering radar it also limits BAP, which now should only show it's being jammed and the general location that jamming is coming from. Since missiles are dependent upon the mounted platforms radar to initially find targets for them to be guided to. Their mech is providing them with incorrect information, to which the only true way to get accurate information is to get LOS on the intended target.

Since Streaks use LOS to lock onto a target then Streaks should not be effected by ECM at all....

Streaks use the targeting computer to determine whether to lock and what to lock onto. If the targeting computer can't ID the target then they can't lock.

KuruptU4Fun, on 01 January 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

TAG also uses LOS, but that LOS comes from a different platform (which should be a scouts role). Missiles that can use the TAG to guide themselves into a target are not depending on the return targeting data given to them by radar, but by a directional "beacon" given to them by the TAG laser.

Amended: if the TAG lasers signal is within the ECM AoE, then that information isn't broadcast to any missile platform correctly unless the TAG laser and the missiles are on the same platform.

NARC is a non-LOS beacon that should allow missiles to lock on to. But according to TT Rules that beacon signal is blocked by ECM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Gristle, on 01 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

They can't because they have strayed too far from TT in regards to how targeting and other sensor systems works in the game.

No they aren't, at least in TT. Default is no radar or C3 computer. BAP is radar in TT, alllowing targeting of mechs without LOS, and should do they same thing in MWO.

This isn't TT, BAP is a piece of equipment that is purchased for $400,000, weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 crit. slots.
It's designed to increase sensor range, speed up target acquisition, and can detect shut down mechs at close range.

Sensors are built into the cockpit and are used to detect and track targets.

While I appreciate that MANY people who play MW games and MW:O come from playing TT Battletech. They are in fact two separate mediums and people need to recognize them as such, different things apply because the different mediums require them to be.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 01 January 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Codejack]

OK, back to school:

Gristle, on 01 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

ECM doesn't counter the TAG Laser, it counters the C3 computer in the TAGing mech.

Really. For just those weapons, huh? So, the people who invented this ECM system just decided not to disable ALL WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THE MECH WHOSE COMPUTERS THEY ARE PLAYING AROUND IN?!

Gristle, on 01 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

They can't because they have strayed too far from TT in regards to how targeting and other sensor systems works in the game.

Yea, but ECM just made it worse; that's not a valid argument

Gristle, on 01 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

No they aren't, at least in TT. Default is no radar or C3 computer. BAP is radar in TT, alllowing targeting of mechs without LOS, and should do they same thing in MWO.

...but then, if you didn't have those systems, IT DIDN'T PREVENT YOU FROM FIRING YOUR WEAPONS!

Gristle, on 01 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Streaks use the targeting computer to determine whether to lock and what to lock onto. If the targeting computer can't ID the target then they can't lock.

Um, no. No. Just no. Not even slightly maybe. NO. N. O.

This has been beaten to death in 50 other threads. Please go read the rules.