204 replies to this topic

[Skyfaller]

From a gameplay balance perspective I find the Jenner to be a toxic mech for the game.

I love driving the thing but I acknowledge that when driving it and when facing it as I drive another mech, that something is quite wrong with having a very fast, jumpjet capable, very small and very cheap mech be able to load armaments that match and in some cases exceed those of medium and heavy mechs.

For example, a single jenner can load six medium lasers without sacrificing speed or armor. It is no surprise then to find that Jenners are the focus first kill of many teams not because they are clueless and fire at the scout but because the firepower the jenner gives it the equivalent threat of something between a medium and a heavy mech.

In TT the Jenner was balanced out with the rules of 10 seconds per firing round and the maps were much larger in distance/speeds. There was also the fact that TT had no lag issues or relied on manual aiming ... a jenner had as much a chance of getting hit as any other mech. These balancing-out mechanics are not present in MWO.

I would propose the Jenner be modified slightly to bring it down from its unbalanced status.

1- Increase the empty weight of the chassis so it eats up 5 more tons than it does now. That prevents mass-medium laser loadouts and encourages the use of small lasers and lighter armaments.

2- Lower top speed per engine rating. It currently can reach high speeds with relatively small XL engines. If an XL currently gives it 110kph lower that to 80 so that in order to have the 110kph they need to equip a larger, heavier XL engine.

Case in point: If high speed is the key asset of the mech it should be achievable by paying for it in tonnage. It is very silly to see 110 kph Jenners running around with full armor, jumpjets and six medium lasers. With #1 and #2 modifications the six medium laser jenner would likely be running 80 kph or at 110kph with 6 light lasers tops.

Edited by Skyfaller, 16 November 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[rythex]

The mech (Jenner) itself is fine, the problem is the net code that can't seem to decide where in time and space the mech is on peoples screens, So it's a guessing game unfortunately when shooting at them,
A jenner going 100-130km in the game results in jumpy/erratic behaviour on other peoples screens. It's really obvious on spectator mode, the server doesn't even know what to do with them.
Viewing a slower 50-80km mech is liquid smooth, you spectate a jenner running at 130km, it's choppy and doesn't seem to update nearly as fast.
Good luck trying to hit that.

Once they figure out how to properly fix Netcode the jenners will be fine, because then they'll be getting cored w/ 2 AC20 hits like they should be.

Plus they really need to add a speed penalty or turning penalty for hitting objects / other mechs when you're going over 100km/hour.

Common tactic I'm seeing now is for 2-3 jenners (I'm assuming premade) to run up to M/H/A mechs and block them in. It's pretty ridiculous

Edited by rythex, 16 November 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Krivvan]

Many custom Jenners are also 'cheating the system' by only using 1 jump jet since it gives the same effect as any other number. So many Jenners have 2 more tons to work with than they should.

[rythex]

Krivvan, on 16 November 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Many custom Jenners are also 'cheating the system' by only using 1 jump jet since it gives the same effect as any other number. So many Jenners have 2 more tons to work with than they should.

Thats funny, you figure they'd have to be added in pairs.. i guess if people can exploit stuff, they will.

[DrxAbstract]

Skyfaller, on 16 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

From a gameplay balance perspective I find the Jenner to be a toxic mech for the game.

I love driving the thing but I acknowledge that when driving it and when facing it as I drive another mech, that something is quite wrong with having a very fast, jumpjet capable, very small and very cheap mech be able to load armaments that match and in some cases exceed those of medium and heavy mechs.

For example, a single jenner can load six medium lasers without sacrificing speed or armor. It is no surprise then to find that Jenners are the focus first kill of many teams not because they are clueless and fire at the scout but because the firepower the jenner gives it the equivalent threat of something between a medium and a heavy mech.

In TT the Jenner was balanced out with the rules of 10 seconds per firing round and the maps were much larger in distance/speeds. There was also the fact that TT had no lag issues or relied on manual aiming ... a jenner had as much a chance of getting hit as any other mech. These balancing-out mechanics are not present in MWO.

I would propose the Jenner be modified slightly to bring it down from its unbalanced status.

1- Increase the empty weight of the chassis so it eats up 5 more tons than it does now. That prevents mass-medium laser loadouts and encourages the use of small lasers and lighter armaments.

2- Lower top speed per engine rating. It currently can reach high speeds with relatively small XL engines. If an XL currently gives it 110kph lower that to 80 so that in order to have the 110kph they need to equip a larger, heavier XL engine.

Case in point: If high speed is the key asset of the mech it should be achievable by paying for it in tonnage. It is very silly to see 110 kph Jenners running around with full armor, jumpjets and six medium lasers. With #1 and #2 modifications the six medium laser jenner would likely be running 80 kph or at 110kph with 6 light lasers tops.

I take it you havnt tried to play a 6 MLas Jenner seriously... Because if you had, you'd recognize it's a wholly invalid setup...

1. Jenners are strapped for tonnage as is. Playing one exclusively for over 800 games in multiple variations, i can say without a doubt, factually, that adding 5 'empty' tons to the base chassis would ruin the mech's viability. The average Jenner configuration, including the Trial variants, run with approximately 7 tons of weapons/ammo. By increasing the empty tonnage you're literally forcing people to use either 2 tons of weapons (Absurd) or reducing their engines/armor configuration to the point it would be slower than and carry less firepower than a Raven/Commando.

2. Firstly, by decreasing the Engine effect of a 300XL you would have to change it across the board for all mechs. Secondly, a 300XL weighs 15.5 tons for a top speed of 138. By reducing this to 100 and requiring a larger engine to reach the same 138kph, a Jenner would have to equip a 375XL which weighs 27.5 tons - a 12.5ton increase.

Combining those changes would require Jenners to run with 5 tons less armament/armor and All mechs to run with 12.5tons less, Jenners specifically 17.5... more than double the size of their payload. Extra speed wouldnt be worth the loss in firepower/armor and extra firepower wouldnt be worth the loss of speed/armor. The Jenner would become a useless mech compared to the Raven and Commando, since they would field a better combination of speed and firepower while having comparable armor, despite all 3 being affected by your crazy Engine change, the other two wouldnt be dealing with a 5 ton disadvantage.

You are also forgetting Jump Jets - Once they're fully introduced, any Jenner pilot that wishes to continue using them is going to lose that many tons off their setup in order to maintain a build similar to their current. Garth himself has commented on this.

The other variables you're forgetting, conveniently, is the high ping/netcode issue, hit detection and knockdowns. I find your 'suggestions' to be poorly thought out, absurdly drastic and very unrealistically biased against Jenners... but that's just me.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 18 November 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Lawler]

Skyfaller, on 16 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

From a gameplay balance perspective I find the Jenner to be a toxic mech for the game.

I love driving the thing but I acknowledge that when driving it and when facing it as I drive another mech, that something is quite wrong with having a very fast, jumpjet capable, very small and very cheap mech be able to load armaments that match and in some cases exceed those of medium and heavy mechs.

For example, a single jenner can load six medium lasers without sacrificing speed or armor. It is no surprise then to find that Jenners are the focus first kill of many teams not because they are clueless and fire at the scout but because the firepower the jenner gives it the equivalent threat of something between a medium and a heavy mech.

In TT the Jenner was balanced out with the rules of 10 seconds per firing round and the maps were much larger in distance/speeds. There was also the fact that TT had no lag issues or relied on manual aiming ... a jenner had as much a chance of getting hit as any other mech. These balancing-out mechanics are not present in MWO.

I would propose the Jenner be modified slightly to bring it down from its unbalanced status.

1- Increase the empty weight of the chassis so it eats up 5 more tons than it does now. That prevents mass-medium laser loadouts and encourages the use of small lasers and lighter armaments.

2- Lower top speed per engine rating. It currently can reach high speeds with relatively small XL engines. If an XL currently gives it 110kph lower that to 80 so that in order to have the 110kph they need to equip a larger, heavier XL engine.

Case in point: If high speed is the key asset of the mech it should be achievable by paying for it in tonnage. It is very silly to see 110 kph Jenners running around with full armor, jumpjets and six medium lasers. With #1 and #2 modifications the six medium laser jenner would likely be running 80 kph or at 110kph with 6 light lasers tops.

There's actually quite a bit more to the issue than high speed, lag shields and medium lasers. Your 5 ton "light mech penalty" kinda stinks in my opinion. No offense, but that's just not "battletech-y". A better solution would be to use crit space limits based on weight class as introduced in the maximum tech sourcebook (I believe). In this way, light mechs would have the same weight to space considerations as heavy and assault mechs.

I agree with you on the speed adjustments, however. They seem very linear as you move up in rating which allows for rediculous speeds even with the speed and engine cap. I think diminishing returns here would be a good thing. Maybe not down to 80 kph, but we'll have to wait until they slay the netcode demon before we can really tell what's going on there anyway.

As far as medium lasers go, they've always been pretty OP so long as you could keep an enemy within 3 to 6 hexes (90 to 180 meters). Within those ranges, mediums had minimal hit penalties. Unfortunately, hit penalties don't translate well to an online environment. On the table, that ER large laser went all the way out to the extent of the medium lasers middle range bracket before even incurring a hit penalty, so it was an accurate weapon and at an advantage over the medium in that respect. In MWO, range is virtually meaningless. It's very difficult to stay at a desired range and this is compounded by little to no difference in a weapon when fired at point blank or maximum listed range. There's no drop off in damage (until range is exceeded). There's no accuracy advantages. It's just raw heat versus raw damage. In this regard, small and medium lasers win every time. It's Made even more potent by the fact that lights are fast enough compared to other mechs that, even if range were to make a difference, they could close that range in such short order on our tiny maps as to make range a moot point yet again.

To sum it all up, it's more of a problem with the netcode and hard point system compounded by weapon imbalance going back to the core game. Crit space limits might be one solution, forcing lighter mechs (including mediums and some heavies) to make more considered choices in their loadouts, but until the netcode situation is resolved, I have a feeling we're going to see more and more laser boating lights.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Any advantage the jenner appears to have is netcode and the fact that JJ's haven't been balanced yet.

[Kraven Kor]

Even 4 Medium Lasers with 13 DHS is too hot for me, and I'm usually not complaining about heat in this game.

Jenner is fine, lag / net-code / hit-detection / whatever is the main problem.

[rythex]

I LOATHE all the lamer Jenner pilots now because they know the game is broken for high speed mechs and claim otherwise..

But once PGI gets their **** together and figures out what they're doing wrong with their netcode it'll balance itself out.

Then I'll be popping the Jenners with my AC20 and not trying to guess where they are in 1.2 seconds.

It gets even worse when they hit their jump jets against a slanted surface, the server has NO idea what is going on so it basically updates the Jenner in like 10-20 meter increments.

Edited by rythex, 16 November 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Krivvan]

rythex, on 16 November 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

I LOATHE all the lamer Jenner pilots now because they know the game is broken for high speed mechs and claim otherwise..

I mainly pilot a Jenner and I don't claim that high speed mechs don't have a lag advantage. Try not to generalize and construct villains for yourself.

Edited by Krivvan, 16 November 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[LaznAzn]

Bear in mind the Jenner and the Cicada are the only 'Mechs that don't follow the engine cap formula. The Raven and the Commando follow a 1.4x multiplier to calculate maximum engine rating. If the Jenner followed the engine cap formula it would have a maximum engine rating of 345, just some food for thought. There is always the possibility both those 'Mechs will be getting speed INCREASES rather than decreases as the netcode becomes more and more optimized.

[rythex]

Krivvan, on 16 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I mainly pilot a Jenner and I don't claim that high speed mechs don't have a lag advantage. Try not to generalize and construct villains for yourself.

I said "lamer" Jenner pilots that claim to not have a lag advantage. If that doesn't apply to you then that's fine.
Try not to act persecuted and insulted when a statement doesn't apply to you.

Edited by rythex, 16 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Krivvan, on 16 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I mainly pilot a Jenner and I don't claim that high speed mechs don't have a lag advantage. Try not to generalize and construct villains for yourself.

Just let'em rant; makes'em feel better.

[Darian DelFord]

Interesting

http://mwomercs.com/...61#entry1430961

[Buttski]

aahhh. nice tears. keep on whining guys

[rythex]

Buttski, on 16 November 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

aahhh. nice tears. keep on whining guys

enjoy your 1 jump jet, lag boat while it lasts.. for another....... 3-4 months

[Trauglodyte]

The netcode is messed up at times, depending on your ping. But more importantly, JJs need to be fixed. The ability to use only one for the full benefit is pretty game breaking right now. And there is no balance in how quickly you can pivot while using JJs other than your top speed (ie, a Jenner can jump and pivot in mid-air because they can pivot naturally fast while a Catapult cannot) which provides them with an especially deadly nimbleness that no other mech has.

Once they fix the game code and properly implement JJs, you'll see Jenners coming down. They'll either sacrifice speed, armor, or weapons to maintain their current edge. Any one of those three is a benefit to everyone trying to kill them.

[DrxAbstract]

rythex, on 16 November 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

enjoy your 1 jump jet, lag boat while it lasts.. for another....... 3-4 months

Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your base, many minutes from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the minutes, from this moment to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lag shields, but they'll never take... OUR SPEED!

Edited by DrxAbstract, 16 November 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[MayGay]

jenner came around a corner on river city the other day and ate an alpha, lets just say the result was tinfoil. Once the netcode is fixed it shouldn't be an issue

[Matist]

They'll be balanced when the netcode is fixed and collisions are back in.