28 replies to this topic

[Kinjry]

Quote

The reason Autocannons have always made it into Mechwarrior games as self-reloading cannons just like a moden Tank cannon or a 30mm Autocannon that deal "full power" with each slug is because the Table Top rules say that all the damage from firing an Autocannon gets registered to a single bodypart location. If you fire a bank of 4 medium laserrs and deal 20 damage to your opponent, then it will be 4 seperate 5dmg shots that can hit up to 4 different locations, whereas an AC/20 will deliver 20dmg to one bodypart with no damage spread. LBX-Autocannons can operate as either normal ACs to deliver pointe-damage or they can act as shotguns which will cause spread damage. They were created to mix-things-up, and they are an official TT variant of the AC. Rotary Autocannons (RAC) fire full-sized autocannon slugs repeatedly, but they jam frequently, fire quite slowly compared to a machinegun, and do not cause any spread-damage.

Now, envision a Mechwarrior game where 2 Heavy Mechs are dualing with their "AC/20s." One of them has a standard MechWarrior AC/20 and delivers a lump of lead to his opponent's left torso - that's 20dmg in the LT immediately. The other pilot has outfitted his Mech with an "AC/20 Minigun" that does 20dmg per firing sequence (with the same weapon cycle time as the other AC used by his opponent)... he fires a concentrated burst of small 35mm HE shells and rips a gash across his oponent's entire torso, dealing 6dmg to the Left Torso, 7dmg to the Center Torso, and 7dmg to the Right Torso (for a total of 20dmg)

Can you call that an AC/20? Accorting to the BattleTech rules: No, it doesn't deliver damage to 1 place.
Can you call it an LBX-AC/20? No, it's not a shotgun.
Can you call it a RAC? No, RACs deliver full-power shots with every firing sequence; it would not break the damage down into 6-7-7 for a single "shot."

There is no current BattleTech weapons platform that deals out the harshness from a very-rapid-fire, high-damage Minigun-type weapon.

The game designers at PGI would have to create a "new weapon" if high-powered Gattling Guns were to be included in the autocannon-class of the Mechwarrior arsenal. I already had posted in the past about how MW4:Mercenaries came with several weapons that were non-cannon and how the game designers there tried to balance them out and make them fair additions to the game. How do the people here feel about possibly having the devs go above-and-beyond the Technical Manuals to create MW:O-unique weapons?

If you ever wanted to see a GAU-8/A Avenger Gattling gun mounted on a Mech, here's your chance to speak-out. I think a "GAC/20" firing a burst of 300 rounds that does a total of 20 damage instead of firing a single slug that does 20 damage would be an awesome addition to MechWarior video games, and it would not be any more powerful than an AC/20. I want spread. I want multiple impacts. I want DoT within the duration of time the burst is firing. I want 20dmg per burst with a GAC/20, where a burst is about 100 rounds fired over 2 seconds and the bullets doing 0.2dmg each.

I used the GAU-8/A reference because it's a real-world weapon that people can think of when I say "Gattling AC/20." I don't care about the real-world GAU-8's properties because Mechwarrior is fiction. If they made a GAC/20 then it would fire a stream of short-range slugs that don't outrange an AC/20, and would deal 20 damage across that stream. Not 40, not 60, not up-to 120... just 20 damage per "mystical battletech unit of time." And ya know what? It wouldn't run the riusk of jamming. Yeah, I said it - AC/20's don't jam for no reason. Just keep the firing rate down to 2,1000 rounds per minute and you'll be fine because it fires in computer-controlled bursts to prevent barrel failure.

Now, if you wanted a Gattling Gun that fires up to 4,200 rounds-per minute and can deal 40 damage per firing sequence, then you can get an Ultra GAC/20... but that might jam if you abuse it because we all know that Ultra autocannons can jam.
Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 12:41 PM.

Original thread http://mwomercs.com/...e-round-bursts/


I personally love the idea of more variation of weapons, even if it breaks up some TT lore, however I am going to go into statistical detail of some examples I've created of the GAC/20's just to show that they are not RACS or an Ulta.

All statistical information is based on, or derived from Ohms quick reference guide. (12/20/2012)


Let's begin by listing the weapons and their ability, with a quick overview.
I will make two example GAC/20's as examples. More fleshed/thought out examples are further down.
FPS = Fired Per Second


AC/20

Damage - 20
Heat - 6
Cooldown - 4
Burst duration - n/a
FPS - .25
Effective Range - 270
Max Range - 810
Slots - 10
Tons - 14
Max DPS - 5
Ammo PT - 7

The AC/20 is a single shot weapon, with a slow re-fire time. The weapon hits for a massive 20 damage, dealing a full transfer of that damage to what ever part of the mech is hit, with no splash or spreading of damage beyond that section. The largest problems with the AC/20 is the low ammo supply, and the loss of 20 damage and 1/7th of a ton if you miss.


GAC/20a


Damage - 0.04
Heat - 0.012
Cooldown - n/a
Burst duration - infinite
FPS - 125
Effective Range - 270
Max Range - 810
Slots - 10
Tons - 14
Max DPS - 5
Ammo PT - 3500

The GAC/20a is nothing more than a glorified machine gun, dealing twice the damage, and over six times the fire rate. It's easy to handle and use, and very forgiving if the plot slips or misses, only losing portions of damage rather than 1/7th ton of ammo. However, the nature of such a weapon requires a skilled pilot to deliver the damage to focused locations, instead of all over. The advantage of a high dps weapon that can sweep targets, such as lights.Or the ability to swap your damage focus on the fly, with out useless/wasted overkill, it also offers superior heat management, with the ability to turn on and off at the pull of a trigger. But with the same DPS/slot/tonnage, it would all be down to pilot preference.

GAC/20b

Damage - 0.04
Heat - 0.012
Cooldown - 2
Burst duration - 2
FPS - 250
Effective Range - 270
Max Range - 810
Slots - 10
Tons - 14
Max DPS - 5
Ammo PT - 3500

The GAC/20b is a burst machine gun, sending out a volley of 250 shots in only two seconds. It sports the advantages and disadvantages of both the GAC/20a and AC/20. It has a shorter burst, allowing for greater/easier damage transfer, but has a transfer time which allows for more pilot error/mistake, it also allows for the sweeping of targets, however due to it's burst nature it cannot be as freely used as the GAC/20a, and shots must be taken with dedication just like an AC/20.




Now, time for some MATHS.

Okay, so I based the GAC/20s off the machine gun, and essentially buffed it up to the AC/20's DPS and values.

First, I wanted to find out how many machine gun bullets it would take to deal 20 damage. In order to find that, I divided 20 by 0.04. The Formula is AC Damage / Desired Damage

20 / 0.04 = 500 (SRAD, Shots required to Achieve Damage)


Okay, so it takes 500 machine gun bullets to deal 20 damage. Now I need to figure out how fast the gun should fire. The AC/20 already has a set damage and time to accomplish this, 20 damage in 4 seconds. We already know it takes 500 shots to deal 20 damage, so I need to spread 500 out over 4 seconds. To do this, I simply divided 500 by 4. The formula is
SRAD / AC Cooldown.

500 / 4 = 125

Okay, so in order to deal 20 damage in 4 seconds, the gun has to fire 125 shots per second, or 7500 shots per minute.
Now lastly, I need to find out how many shots the weapon should have per ton. In order to do this, we take the amount of ammo required to deal 20 damage, and multiply it by the number of Shots Required to Achieve 20 damage.
The formula is SRAD x ACAPT (AC Ammo Per Ton)

500 x 7 = 3500

And with that, we have the essentials. We need to find out how much heat each shot will generate, in order to create 6 heat per second. In order to do this we need to know how much heat the AC/20 generates per second. This can be found out by dividing the total heat, by the cool down. Once we know the heat per second, we can divide it by the weapons DPS, and then multiply by the weapons damage per shot. This will tell us how much heat every individual shot generates.
The Formula is ( H / CD ) / DPS x Damage = H/PS, Below is formula for the GAC/20 and the AC/20.

GAC/20 AC/20

( 6 / 4 ) / 5 x 0.04 = 0.012 ( 6 / 4 ) / 5 x 20 = 6


Right, Now that we have the heat per individual shot, we need to make sure it's accurate, in order to do this we will multiply the heat per shot, by the Shots Required to Accomplish 20 damage, which is seen below. The formula is H / PS x SRA20


GAC/20 AC/20

0.012 x 500 = 6 6 x 1 = 6

Now we need to figure out HPB, or Heat per Burst. your HPB should be the same as the AC weapons heat. To learn a GACb's burst heat, Multiply H/PS by FPS, and then multiply agai


Wonderful! Now we know everything we need about these weapons. However, basing this much damage off the machine gun results in insane fire speeds that would probably just lag the server.



Formulas used to create the following are listed above, and will be listed below in a more organized/less explained manner.
This is all just created for discussion and comparison, so people could have a statistical idea of what kind of weapons these would be. When compared do RAC's and Ultras, these are completely different, and would fall into their own unique category and roll.


Some rounding has been done, rounding up mostly, many calculations end up .022 or .0004 decimal places off. For ease of use/viewing I have rounded these to two decimal places.

GAC/20a

Damage - 0.16
Heat - 0.048
HPS - 1.5
Cooldown - n/a .
Burst duration - infinite
FPS/SPM - 31.25/1875
Effective Range - 270
Max Range - 810
Slots - 10
Tons - 14
Max DPS - 5
Ammo PT - 875
Max DPS - 5



GAC/20b

Damage - 0.16
Heat - 0.048
HPS - 1.5
HPB - 6
Cooldown - 2
Burst duration - 2
FPS/SPM - 62.5/3750
Effective Range - 270
Max Range - 810
Slots - 10
Tons - 14
Max DPS - 5
Ammo PT - 875


GAC/10a

Damage - 0.12
Heat - 0.036
HPS - 1.2
Cooldown - n/a
Burst duration - infinite
FPS/SPM - 33.33
Effective Range - 450
Max Range - 1350
Slots - 7
Tons - 12
Max DPS - 3.9996
Ammo PT - 1250


GAC/10b

Damage - 0.12
Heat - 0.036
HPS - 1.2
HPB - 3
Cooldown - 1.25
Burst duration - 1.25
FPS - 66.7
Effective Range - 450
Max Range - 1350
Slots - 7
Tons - 12
Max DPS - 4
Ammo PT - 1250


GAC/5a

Damage - 0.08
Heat - 0.016
HPS - 0.59
Cooldown - n/a
Burst duration - infinite
FPS - 36.75/2205
Effective Range - 540
Max Range - 1620
Slots - 4
Tons - 8
Max DPS - 2.94
Ammo PT - 1875


GAC/5b

Damage - 0.08
Heat - 0.016
HPS - .59
HPB - 1
Cooldown - .85
Burst duration - .85
FPS/SPM - 73.5/4410
Effective Range - 540
Max Range - 1620
Slots - 4
Tons - 8
Max DPS - 2.94
Ammo PT - 1875


GAC/2a

Damage - 0.04
Heat - 0.02
HPS - 2
Cooldown - n/a
Burst duration - infinite
FPS - 100
Effective Range - 720
Max Range - 2160
Slots - 1
Tons - 6
Max DPS - 4
Ammo PT - 3750


GAC/2b

Damage - 0.04
Heat - 0.02
HPB - 1
HPS - 2
Cooldown - .25
Burst duration - .25
FPS/SPM - 200/12000
Effective Range - 720
Max Range - 2160
Slots - 1
Tons - 6
Max DPS - 4
Ammo PT - 3750

Okay Please tell me if there are any mistakes in the formulas used, or if you see any other problems with anything, And leave feedback on what you think of this.



EDIT : Moved Prosperity Park's quote to the top of the post.

Edited by Kinjry, 02 January 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[J4ckInthebox]

Quote

not canon

Edited by J4ckInthebox, 02 January 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[Kinjry]

That's besides the point. PGI has already gone off canon anyway.

[Lagfest]

I like it.
PGI MAKE IT SO!

(might want to move to suggestion forum, or post a similar one there)

Pulse lasers don't lag the server. So I doubt this will either.

[Elkarlo]

Rotary (gatling )Autocannons are Canon, for RAC/2 and RAC/5

in 10 Years


And the "Stream" Ac's we had in MW3/4 have Problems because they would break netcode even harder.

Edited by Elkarlo, 02 January 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Nayru]

Yes, 'off canon' in the sense of balance. Not in trying to make stupid crap up.

No idea what this latest obsession with different ACs firing in different ways but the fact is single shot damage would always trump all and there is nothing that would make multi shot ones viable without being flat out better.

[Vassago Rain]

tl;dr, here's an inferior AC that I just made up.

[DrVulcan]

Elkarlo, on 02 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Rotary (gatling )Autocannons are Canon, for RAC/2 and RAC/5

in 10 Years


And the "Stream" Ac's we had in MW3/4 have Problems because they would break netcode even harder.

RAC 10 is funny in Battletech. It has a great chance of blowing up your own mech if you push it.

[Throat Punch]

No.

Edited by Morsdraco, 02 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

DrVulcan, on 02 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

RAC 10 is funny in Battletech. It has a great chance of blowing up your own mech if you push it.

...
...
...
Jam yes blow up?????
When did that happen?
And RAC 10 is serious business on TT. Up to 60 points of damage (at 6x heat). Not funny at all!

[SpiralRazor]

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

tl;dr, here's an inferior AC that I just made up.

Its not inferior though, just maybe for you Trollago, and for all you TT guys multi round AC/20s are most definitely in Canon.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 03 January 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[Elyam]

While part of me desires a religious adherence to canon in all aspects, I also can recognize that the live-play computer-driven environment allows us new ways to express the CBT mechanics - not in ways that alter BT, but enhance the original purpose and spirit without breaking it by fully utilizing the underlying complexities that the PC can handle. This is why I can support lasers as a spread DoT instead of a single-location full damage strike as they are in CBT. I could likewise support the ACs (which have always been described as firing rapid-fire streams of shells) being expressed as a spread DoT, though a shorter one than the lasers (3 pulses, for example, instead of 10, but spread over the same length of time). I've resisted this for a long time, but with limitation, have come to appreciiate it for MWO. I'd certainly love to hear the deep staccato booming of the AC/20 and the ripping scream of the AC/2. And the RACs are fine to add when their year of availability arrives.

But none of this means I'll support the invention and addition of new, non-canon weapons. So 'no' to this part of the OPs ideas.

As BT has moved from TT to PC (and the same for any other game), I see the role of the computer as one of enhancement of the experience of those systems that were originally devised, but I believe altering what is known historically in BT as object facts should not occur. If you want new stuff, build it into the next era of Battletech (whatever they end up naming the post-Dark Age era) as it unfolds.

Edited by Elyam, 02 January 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Kaijin]

Autocannon were called Autocannon in BattleTech because it sounded cooler than Semi-Autocannon, even though that is what they are. Then the MW titles came long and thought that Autocannon should fire like machine guns because that's just cooler too. If MWO were to adhere to canon, we wouldn't see RACs until the appointed time, but PGI seems perfectly content to play fast and loose with canon, so maybe you will see it before then.

[Tennex]

thank god for variety. Isn't that why we are trying to cram all these mechs into the game. What difference would it make if all this mech variety is limited by very few weapon behaviors.

[Ashnod]

These type of auto cannons are just regular old auto cannons... Just different manufacturers brands.. Would love to see them put in.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20

"Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output."

[LarkinOmega]

One benefit of this type of AC is partial damage. I would love an AC20 that shot 20 1 damage shots in rapid succession, it would be very effective vs lights and other fast movers. Sure, you'd miss the first shot, but the rest would probably be spot on.

[BerryChunks]

J4ckInthebox, on 02 January 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

LOL

Tennex, on 02 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

thank god for variety. Isn't that why we are trying to cram all these mechs into the game. What difference would it make if all this mech variety is limited by very few weapon behaviors.

variety IS indeed the spice of life. That's why I want to be a mormon for all them wives.

[Felix]

Kinjry, on 02 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

That's besides the point. PGI has already gone off canon anyway.

Heres a better idea

http://www.sarna.net...ssault_Gauss_20

There is already an auto fire kinetic weapon that could easily be put in, retain somewhat canon and fulfill the same purpose.

And we could get it now as PGI doesnt care that much about the timeline as they already gave us an uber-charged Angel ECM

[SpiralRazor]

Mmm...too soon for the assault gauss.


I would like to see separate manufactures though, except for all weapon systems..

That way the single shot AC crowd and the multi shot AC crowd can get along just fine:)

[KuruptU4Fun]

Ok, there have been some "bends" in canon, but by all means if I'm wrong and they've completely broken it and created their own things that go completely without basis then let me know. Otherwise MW:O is "based" on canon, it does not have the right to ADD it's own events, characters, and content without permission from those who take care of said canon.

BTW- if you pull out the "Ilya Muromets" Cataphract, according to Sarna.net (yes I understand it's not the BT bible) the name is the name of the mech. Of which the name of the pilot for that mech is: Grigori Kovalenko. It is not canon, but BT has accepted it and added it accordingly.