286 replies to this topic

[shotokan5]

I hope they pay you a lot of money its a tough job. Q what is the end game going to be like? A 3025 concept or more MW4 shoot and bang. Q Will their be a real time map of where the houses and clans stand at any given time in the game? Whatever your answer I promise to be respectful but those who pay real money should have the right to know.

[SoHxPaladin]

Homeless Bill, on 02 January 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Cool story, bro.

LOL

[Stone Profit]

MGoo, on 16 January 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

The problem is, that they are trying to sell something,
I dont give a **** if they are fine with it, nor should they, its the rest of the player base thats is NOT FINE with ECM and the PLAYERS NOT THE DEVS should be the voice that gets heard when it comes to ecm, if the devs like it fine, they can keep it and watch the majority of the players of this game move onto something else.

IF i sell you a car missing its wheels and insist that it is 'WORKING AS INTENDED' would that be a valid defence??? i might think it works as intended by nobody else would agree with me. and nobody would buy it.
this ecm thing is like being forced to use somebody elses TT house rules that nobody but the kid with no skill likes.

Tbis is how it goes. The people who can hack it against ecm are fine. Those who cant should quit. Thwt is the long and the short of it.

[ICEFANG13]

You want 80% of players to quit?

[Jakob Knight]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Tbis is how it goes. The people who can hack it against ecm are fine. Those who cant should quit. Thwt is the long and the short of it.

The question isn't if they can hack it, but if they should -have- to hack it.

I regularly fight against and with ECM. I know it's power and how to fight against it. And I know what I am doing to the other side with it. Does that mean I'm for the way ECM is in the game? No...it means that I'm as capable as any other gamer of using the tools handed to me by the devs to win a game, or as penalized by them when the situation is artificially weighted against me.

What the issue is lies in both that the system being implemented in the game has existed for years and has been changed into something unrecognizable from what it was designed as, and the relative power of that system in regards to the cost of using said system. Even with all that aside, the fact that one system can totally remove two core systems (LRMs and SSRMs) from the game with no effective counter provides even more problems for the game as a whole, removing an important role (indirect fire support) and counter-system (streaks) from the battlefield. I, among others, have concluded this is something that should not be, even if we can and do work with it (because we have to).

So please don't try to make this a 'L2P' excuse, because plenty of us who are against ECM are very able to play, and still oppose what you seem to feel is an issue of playskill. Well, not to break it to you, but no skill you possess will allow you to overcome an ECM mech if you are in a unit designed for LRM indirect fire support. When the game setup prevents you from using your weapons, skill is a non-issue.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 16 January 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[Stone Profit]

its not 80 percent of the people who have an issue with ecm. it is a VERY small number of the players of this game that cant handle how ecm is. And YES, they SHOULD have to hack it. I dont want some pissy watered down version of this game just so some some bs ****** pilots couldnt handle not having Iwin streaks lrms and little red boxes for targets.

Edited by Stone Profit, 16 January 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

its not 80 percent of the people who have an issue with ecm. it is a VERY small number of the players of this game that cant handle how ecm is. And YES, they SHOULD have to hack it.

You're missing everyone's point. It's not that we can't deal with it or don't (well, some people can't or they bailed or whatever, but most of us are adapting just fine). It's that we shouldn't have to. It's that a 1.5 ton piece of equipment shouldn't be nearly as useful as ECM is.

Compare AMS and ECM. Same weight, same number of critical slots, and ECM is better in every single way. ECM is not only superior at doing what AMS is for (LRM defense), it does a whole bunch of other ****, too (SSRM defense, cloaking, cloaks team mates, jams enemies, etc.). How does that make sense for balance?

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

I dont want some pissy watered down version of this game just so some some bs ****** pilots couldnt handle not having Iwin streaks lrms and little red boxes for targets.

Balancing ECM is watering down the entire game? Great logic. LRMs are mostly only useful against bad pilots, and I also happen to think SSRMs need some balancing of their own (did anyone else forget the Streakcat Apocalypse of pre-ECM?). That said, a massively-overpowered piece of equipment isn't the way to fix other broken things.

[Stone Profit]

Homeless Bill, on 16 January 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

You're missing everyone's point. It's not that we can't deal with it or don't (well, some people can't or they bailed or whatever, but most of us are adapting just fine). It's that we shouldn't have to. It's that a 1.5 ton piece of equipment shouldn't be nearly as useful as ECM is.

Compare AMS and ECM. Same weight, same number of critical slots, and ECM is better in every single way. ECM is not only superior at doing what AMS is for (LRM defense), it does a whole bunch of other ****, too (SSRM defense, cloaking, cloaks team mates, jams enemies, etc.). How does that make sense for balance?


Balancing ECM is watering down the entire game? Great logic. LRMs are mostly only useful against bad pilots, and I also happen to think SSRMs need some balancing of their own (did anyone else forget the Streakcat Apocalypse of pre-ECM?). That said, a massively-overpowered piece of equipment isn't the way to fix other broken things.

ECM isnt the fix to these things. and reducing ECM from the already perfectly counterable system IS watering down the game. Seriously if you cant deal with ECM (or wont) then stop playing cause this aint the game for you. I would suggest a fps along the lines of COD or BF. one that requires no thinking. Try playing against ecm rather than just ***** to have it changed so you can "handle it".

Oh, and "Shouldn't" means nothing. because I say it "Should" so whos right? the guy who agrees with the people who made the game and said it was fine, or the guy who disagrees with the guys who made this game and said its fine? Ill give you a clue. Neither. But regardless as to what you or I want, ecm is here to stay, and Im just happy it is and I dont have to play some dumbed down version of the game just to satiate the people who whine "itsto hard/not fair/not right/CHANGE IT ALREADY! QQ"

Edited by Stone Profit, 16 January 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[TehCable]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

ECM isnt the fix to these things. and reducing ECM from the already perfectly counterable system IS watering down the game. Seriously if you cant deal with ECM (or wont) then stop playing cause this aint the game for you. I would suggest a fps along the lines of COD or BF. one that requires no thinking. Try playing against ecm rather than just ***** to have it changed so you can "handle it".

Oh, and "Shouldn't" means nothing. because I say it "Should" so whos right? the guy who agrees with the people who made the game and said it was fine, or the guy who disagrees with the guys who made this game and said its fine? Ill give you a clue. Neither. But regardless as to what you or I want, ecm is here to stay, and Im just happy it is and I dont have to play some dumbed down version of the game just to satiate the people who whine "itsto hard/not fair/not right/CHANGE IT ALREADY! QQ"

I would contend that ECM dumbs down the game.

[TehCable]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

its not 80 percent of the people who have an issue with ecm. it is a VERY small number of the players of this game that cant handle how ecm is. And YES, they SHOULD have to hack it. I dont want some pissy watered down version of this game just so some some bs ****** pilots couldnt handle not having Iwin streaks lrms and little red boxes for targets.

http://mwomercs.com/...-communication/

You're right, it's not 80%... According to the above linked poll, it's 85%.

[ICEFANG13]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

ECM isnt the fix to these things. and reducing ECM from the already perfectly counterable system IS watering down the game. Seriously if you cant deal with ECM (or wont) then stop playing cause this aint the game for you. I would suggest a fps along the lines of COD or BF. one that requires no thinking. Try playing against ecm rather than just ***** to have it changed so you can "handle it".

Oh, and "Shouldn't" means nothing. because I say it "Should" so whos right? the guy who agrees with the people who made the game and said it was fine, or the guy who disagrees with the guys who made this game and said its fine? Ill give you a clue. Neither. But regardless as to what you or I want, ecm is here to stay, and Im just happy it is and I dont have to play some dumbed down version of the game just to satiate the people who whine "itsto hard/not fair/not right/CHANGE IT ALREADY! QQ"

So are we in beta or what? Because I thought I was a beta tester and it seems like I should get feedback. Maybe you need to learn to play if you need ECM to counter the big bad LRMs.

Pro-tip, stay close to cover if you are a heavier mech, so you can use it when LRMs come flying.

[Gremlich Johns]

I've stated this several times to no great effect: ECM only protects the mech using it, NOT the friendly mechs surrounding it. Friendly mechs are affected the same way as the opposing mechs are - that is the nature of an electromagnetic field. You have a tempest shield or other such shielding your comms and radar great - but not until the 3060-3070s. Spider with ECM? Not until 3054 or even later.

ECM has negated the scout in Role Warfare because you do not need a recon mech when you can cloak the main force. (see my first point above)

[Corvus Antaka]

I liked this Q&A.

However, I am appalled that you stripped the AC/20 from your urbanmech. shocked. Verges on Blapshemy.

[Jakob Knight]

Stone Profit, on 16 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

its not 80 percent of the people who have an issue with ecm. it is a VERY small number of the players of this game that cant handle how ecm is. And YES, they SHOULD have to hack it. I dont want some pissy watered down version of this game just so some some bs ****** pilots couldnt handle not having Iwin streaks lrms and little red boxes for targets.

All data that has been gathered works against what you say, since the poll numbers (the only verifiable data on the subject since numbers of posts would be subject to simple trolling, much as I hate using polls as anything like data) are well past conclusive that it is the 80 percent of the people who think ECM needs to be changed. Saying it is the other way around is just throwing around incorrect data as fact.

And, as I said, it isn't that we can't handle it, but that the abilities built into the equipment are far and above what ECM was designed as and that the effect on the game is greater than reason demands is balanced. Perhaps you would have no trouble when they introduced Tandem-Charged Warheads into the game (every missile hit has a chance to bypass armor and cause critical damage/ammo explosions/engine damage/pilot death)? Maybe a 10-ton ERPPC that automatically destroys any mech it hits? Because that is the level of effect we are talking about here.

Lastly, considering ECM was implemented in the game this way was precisely because people couldn't 'hack it' against LRMs and Streaks, claiming that any criticism of that system for the same reasons are invalid only makes me wonder why a double-standard seems acceptable. Certainly, your contention that ECM is 'perfectly' counterable is blatently false as there is no 'perfect' counter to it. TAG cannot reliably work against it, no action a pilot takes can negate it, and the mechs that use it pay almost nothing to use it (including not needing to take any action to use it).

If you want people to take your points as reasoned and worthwhile, you have to use reason and not incorrect statements and unsubstantiated comments to prove your point.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 17 January 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[DasProjektil]

Jakob Knight, on 17 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

All data that has been gathered works against what you say, since the poll numbers (the only verifiable data on the subject since numbers of posts would be subject to simple trolling, much as I hate using polls as anything like data) are well past conclusive that it is the 80 percent of the people who think ECM needs to be changed. ...

The Polls you are referring to are not even close to being representative. I haven't seen a single one that had more than about 250 participants.
Right now there are over 1.500 People active on these Forums. That is less then 15 %.

I don't think ECM is that bad, but you are right, it does to much for to less.

[Stone Profit]

Jakob Knight, on 17 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

All data that has been gathered works against what you say, since the poll numbers (the only verifiable data on the subject since numbers of posts would be subject to simple trolling, much as I hate using polls as anything like data) are well past conclusive that it is the 80 percent of the people who think ECM needs to be changed. Saying it is the other way around is just throwing around incorrect data as fact.

And, as I said, it isn't that we can't handle it, but that the abilities built into the equipment are far and above what ECM was designed as and that the effect on the game is greater than reason demands is balanced. Perhaps you would have no trouble when they introduced Tandem-Charged Warheads into the game (every missile hit has a chance to bypass armor and cause critical damage/ammo explosions/engine damage/pilot death)? Maybe a 10-ton ERPPC that automatically destroys any mech it hits? Because that is the level of effect we are talking about here.

Lastly, considering ECM was implemented in the game this way was precisely because people couldn't 'hack it' against LRMs and Streaks, claiming that any criticism of that system for the same reasons are invalid only makes me wonder why a double-standard seems acceptable. Certainly, your contention that ECM is 'perfectly' counterable is blatently false as there is no 'perfect' counter to it. TAG cannot reliably work against it, no action a pilot takes can negate it, and the mechs that use it pay almost nothing to use it (including not needing to take any action to use it).

If you want people to take your points as reasoned and worthwhile, you have to use reason and not incorrect statements and unsubstantiated comments to prove your point.

Your logic is flawed. The effecte of ecm are not insurmountable, you said so yourself. If you can beat it with any weapons ingame, then its balanced. Its just tougher. Its also balanced by the limited number of variants. I dont run ecm because I do not want to run those m3chs. And the poll data is crap as the number of people who post on the forums is a very very small fraction of the ingame population. Therefore the data cannot be used to draw any conclusions. Have you not taken a statistics course? But feel free to remain insulting as that ALWAYS leads to constructive discussion. Some people get all buthurt and try to get back by being emotional. If your facts stood for themselves you wouldnt need to insult people. Please try again.

[Jakob Knight]

DasProjektil, on 17 January 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

The Polls you are referring to are not even close to being representative. I haven't seen a single one that had more than about 250 participants.
Right now there are over 1.500 People active on these Forums. That is less then 15 %.

I don't think ECM is that bad, but you are right, it does to much for to less.

And there are greater numbers of players active in the game than are in the Forums. This is one reason I don't like to use Polls for any meaningful data (aside from the fact that too many people use polls to make decisions about something other than people's opinions), but the simple fact is that the poll does provide accurate data for those who chose to answer the poll, and by extention a snapshot of what is likely to be an accurate outcome if the survey were expanded. In the absence of any other numbers from the percentages of players who a) don't read the forums and b ) didn't participate in the poll, the breakdown among those who did take the poll is the only number that can be measured for the other two groups. To use a simpler example, just because someone doesn't say 'no' does not mean they said 'yes'. It just means they didn't say 'no, or didn't say anything at all. Either way, they can't be used in any conclusive way to reinforce a 'yes' claim. What can be said is 'Based on the number of people who said 'yes' and those who said 'no', this is the indication as to how the larger population would bear out if the survey were expanded equally across the entire population'.

In the case of the poll in question, the results were not even close to being questionable on the issue of ECM. Even given that there would be many people who would abstain from voting had the poll been across 100% of the playerbase of MWO, the percentages would not swing wildly enough to alter the outcome (that would require alot more concern on the part of the playerbase on only one side of the poll, something that would already have motivated them to participate rather than abstain). 80-85 percent is too large a margin for reasonable error unless the poll itself was faulty in the question it asked. And that isn't what's in question here, but the numbers of participants.

Stone Profit, on 17 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Your logic is flawed. The effecte of ecm are not insurmountable, you said so yourself. If you can beat it with any weapons ingame, then its balanced. Its just tougher. Its also balanced by the limited number of variants. I dont run ecm because I do not want to run those m3chs. And the poll data is crap as the number of people who post on the forums is a very very small fraction of the ingame population. Therefore the data cannot be used to draw any conclusions. Have you not taken a statistics course? But feel free to remain insulting as that ALWAYS leads to constructive discussion. Some people get all buthurt and try to get back by being emotional. If your facts stood for themselves you wouldnt need to insult people. Please try again.

If you cannot use any poll data to draw any conclusions, where are you getting your own claim that it isn't 80 percent of the playerbase that is having trouble with ECM? And not being insurmountable does not mean it is 'perfectly counterable'. Perfection requires balance, not so great a weight on one side that you need unreasonable amounts of effort to overcome very little weight on the other. That's called imbalance, and is contrary to 'perfect'.

As to being insulting, I am not the one accusing players who feel ECM needs to be changed of being inferior players, or failing to have the common courtesy to spell out full words when speaking to other people. And I certainly don't need to resort to shock-words and profanity to make my points.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 17 January 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Stone Profit, on 17 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Your logic is flawed. The effecte of ecm are not insurmountable, you said so yourself. If you can beat it with any weapons ingame, then its balanced. Its just tougher. Its also balanced by the limited number of variants. I dont run ecm because I do not want to run those m3chs. And the poll data is crap as the number of people who post on the forums is a very very small fraction of the ingame population. Therefore the data cannot be used to draw any conclusions. Have you not taken a statistics course? But feel free to remain insulting as that ALWAYS leads to constructive discussion. Some people get all buthurt and try to get back by being emotional. If your facts stood for themselves you wouldnt need to insult people. Please try again.

Can you show a poll that shows that a majority of players like ECM then? Or should we add 3rd person to the game?

Just because it's beatable, doesn't make it right. LRMs and SSRMs cannot do a thing about it, some mechs cannot beat an ECM mech on similar skill levels. No other weapon system or item is used as much as ECM can be used. Even weapons like Medium Lasers, and SSRMs are not used on 100% of mechs that can use it. ECM has been used on 99% of mechs I've seen it available to. Its by far the most effective thing in game, its worth making room for, regardless of build.

[StalaggtIKE]

ICEFANG13, on 16 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Pro-tip, stay close to cover if you are a heavier mech, so you can use it when LRMs come flying.

But how does one knows if LRM are flying at him? Surely we need some kind of warning system, like a flashing banner that says "incoming missil...!" NVM.

[Stone Profit]

ICEFANG13, on 17 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Can you show a poll that shows that a majority of players like ECM then? Or should we add 3rd person to the game?

Just because it's beatable, doesn't make it right. LRMs and SSRMs cannot do a thing about it, some mechs cannot beat an ECM mech on similar skill levels. No other weapon system or item is used as much as ECM can be used. Even weapons like Medium Lasers, and SSRMs are not used on 100% of mechs that can use it. ECM has been used on 99% of mechs I've seen it available to. Its by far the most effective thing in game, its worth making room for, regardless of build.

I dont need a poll so because forums polls are inadequate to determine the feeling on ecm you want... another poll? Did you even read what I wrote? And as ive said before3 you and I dont determine "right". I said it was balanced not your subject view of right.