3 replies to this topic

[Comassion]

The concept of Role Warfare in MWO is good, but the execution needs work.

There are two main issues that I see at the moment: The first is Information Warfare.

These are the tools of Information Warfare:
1. ECM
2. TAG
3. NARC
4. BAP


The elephant in the room is ECM, and I'll get into more details about it in a second, but first a note on 'mech roles.

The choices of which 'mechs were able to mount ECM didn't properly take into account the need for Role Warfare - it gave a very powerful tool to already-powerful combat 'mechs. I do not mind ECM being powerful and unique to specific chassis, and I think it would be much more well balanced if it were mounted on:

1. The slower Ravens.
2. All Commandos
3. Nothing else. Not the fast Raven, not an Atlas, nothing else.

That means that if you want the power of ECM, you take it in a 'mech that's not also a fully capable Assault brawler or an effective Light combatant. ECM is so powerful that it absolutely must come with a downside, and if that downside is not in tonnage, it should be within the chassis that you mount it on. If it were limited to the slower Ravens and to the fragile Commandos, I feel it would actually be much more balanced than it is now. As it is, you can take it on a Raven which is already a very competent Light combatant, or on an Atlas which is already a very capable Assault 'mech. Where's the Role Warfare in that? You need to give the 'lesser' combat 'mechs these capabilities, not add them onto the good ones.

Secondly, the tools of Information Warfare do not mesh well with each other.

NARC is awful, and a simple duration increase will not solve the problem. NARC needs to last a very long time, and it needs to shine through ECM so that it's a viable counter to the great power of that information warfare tool. It weighs 5 tons for 6 shots and uses a weapon slot - this thing should be the BEST information warfare tool you can take, and it's currently the worst. When you get hit with a NARC beacon, your reaction should be fear and terror of what's to come next. As of now, you can stroll behind cover, or stay next to (or be) an ECM 'mech and ignore it.

TAG is almost right - it shines through ECM and is getting a range increase. If it didn't use a weapon slot (or got its own TAG-specific slot on certain chassis) it would be perfect.

BAP is OK if you've got the weight, but it could stand to be better. How about it allows targeting through terrain, but like ECM it is limited to certain chassis? It could also stand to increase the range at which you can target an ECM 'mech, thus acting a bit more as a counter to that equipment.

Bottom line - the Information warfare tools could use some help to bring them up to the capabilities and desirability of ECM. I really like the idea that IW tools are powerful, but ECM is far and away the best one, and ironically it's also the best equipment for countering itself - so why take anything else? In addition, all this equipment should be limited to certain chassis, to enhance their uniqueness, thus making some variants better at Information Warfare and other variants better at combat capability - thus enabling the original vision of Role Warfare.




The second issue I see in the game right now is that Mediums are not in a good place. Before the Engine restructuring they could generally go fast enough to be a huge threat to Light 'mechs, and they were the Light Killers of the game - which was important because Heavies and Assaults had serious problems when engaged by Lights (which is great, by the way). After that however, with the exception of the Cicada, the Medium chassis were left in the dust by the Heavies. Heavy 'mechs can easily keep up with the Mediums for speed and maneuverability, and they have a vast increase in firepower and a significant increase in armor. Right now I'm not sure what the Medium is supposed to do that a Heavy can't do better. I think they either need a speed buff or Heavies need a speed hit (more likely the former), so that they can return to their roles as MWOs Light-killers.

Edited by Comassion, 03 January 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Kreisel]

I agree with much of your assessment, but there are a few areas in which I differ.

The Devs are not going to remove ECM from being able to fit on the Raven 3L or Atlas, it is too entrenched in the lore and Battletech Cannon. For the same reasons Narc is unlikely to beat ECM, considering the original function of ECM was to disable Narc/BAP/C3 (though I agree Narc require a buff to be considered useful).

I like the flavor of having only some variants of the mechs that can carry ECM being able to carry it, it adds flavor to distinguish them from the other Chassis. The problem that persists is ECM is too good. The Raven is a good example, The 4x has 2 features the 3L lacks, Jump jets and the ability to mount ballistics, in a balanced setting these should be an attractive choice to consider against ECM and a faster speed. The 2x really has nothing to make it stand out right now, it would be nice to see it get something like a slightly improved turning radius/torso twist over the other Ravens and perhaps taking slightly reduced damage when shots hit that weaponless arm that looks like a shield panel

• Tag feels about right (give it a toggle and then I think it will be good)
  
• BAP feels about right
  
• While it's not info war fare AMS felt about right or at least it did before ECM made it obsolete. considering all the complaints I've heard about LRM/SSRM though, It could maybe use a bit of a buff. It should be THE equipment to counter missile, and being able to mount 2 on one mech should actually BE almost as big a deal as being able to put on ECM (K Atlas VS D-DC)
  
• Jump jets need a major buff, now that your need several. Personally I'd say having 3 jump jets on a mech ought to be as much of a tactical advantage as having BAP or ECM. Since on the lightest mech that's the same tonnage. It should fill a different role, but that role ideally should be just as valueable.
  
• Narc needs a major buff.
  
• the devs themselves have pointed out CASE needs a buff, especially where XL engines are concerned.

What I'd really like to see is have ECM fall in line with BAP in terms of how powerful it is... 25% reduction in range, rather than reduced TO 25%, 25% longer lock times instead of double and a single additional effect on hostile mechs under 180 (rather than several). I would drop it's ability to stop hostiles from locking on mechs outside the bubble if they are caught in in it, nipping at the heels of a missile boat while carrying AMS which is shooting down part of any missile salvos as they fire them should fulfill the same roll that running around them with ECM does now, but at least give them a fighting chance.

To say nothing of having a point for putting AMS on Mechs with ECM. Heck right now it wouldn't even be considered a drawback if those mechs didn't have an AMS slot. (Which otherwise might be a good way to balance ECM variants against other mechs.)

I know information warfare is kinda the big one right now, you didn't talk much about the other roles.

Defensive gear:

• Armor
  
• CASE
  
• AMS
  
• Standard Engines
  
• Speed
  
• weapons that cause shaking (throw off hostile aim)
  
• ECM in it's current form

Offensive gear:

• Weapons
  
• TAG
  
• NARC
  
• Artemis
  
• ECM in it's current form (as the best way to counter ECM and being able to use certain weapon types)
  
• Jump Jets (getting the high ground, or getting around to places you couldn't ambush from otherwise)
  
• XL Engines/speed

Commander Gear:

• Nothing stands out, maybe Tag, Narc, ECM?
  
• Team speak servers
  
• The map

Scouting

• Speed
  
• Jump Jets
  
• small profile
  
• BAP
  
• TAG
  
• NARC
  
• ECM

Hunchback big advantage is with their Torso twist and arms they can shoot almost directly behind themselves which is great for brawling. Mediums are also supposed to be able to accelerate, slow down and switch faster than heavier mechs. When physics come back (i.e lights ending up sprawled on their arse when they run through someone) and we get some fighting in close city quarters, where an increased maneuverability is more useful than increased speed, it should shine at the role it was designed for... turning a corner at close quarters, unleashing a punishing blow and fading back behind cover before the larger mechs can respond. Hunchback always felt to me like it was a mech built to ambush you and perform well in the close quarters maze of urban combat.

I'd like to see the Centurions get the same bonus I mentioned for the Raven 2x, let them use that extra arm as an actual shield give them a defensive bonus for turning to the side and taking hits on a portion of the mech that looks like it's designed to do so. The Centurions could be really great at the defensive 'role' if it were more clearly defined and it's equipment better. 'Zombie' Centurions already can take on a lot of punishment and continue to run around doing damage with nothing but a CT, legs and a head. I say build on that theme.

Also being a smaller target than say an Atlas does make you harder to hit, so it's an oft overlooked advantage... though strangely some of the mech sizes in game don't seem to line up with their tonnage real well. Is it just me or is a Stalker about the same size as a catapult?

[GioAvanti]

Honestly seems more like a nerf ECM post than a post about role warfare.

Why nerf ECM? Why not make narc/bap more powerful?

I don't think BAP is in a good place... frankly it concerns me that you think it is in terms of your own bias.

[Jakob Knight]

GioAvanti, on 03 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Honestly seems more like a nerf ECM post than a post about role warfare.

Why nerf ECM? Why not make narc/bap more powerful?

I don't think BAP is in a good place... frankly it concerns me that you think it is in terms of your own bias.

Probably because ECM makes both useless, no matter how much you buff their performance. It doesn't matter if you make NARC last a hundred times longer than it does now when ECM blocks it completely, regardless of its strength. Half of infinity is, surprisingly, still infinity. BAP is in the same boat.

Basically, if they don't nerf ECM, they would need to give the same kind of earth-shattering ability additions to both that would make them as untrue to their intended roles as the devs have done to ECM. Otherwise, there would be no effect.