17 replies to this topic

[Davers]

In TT ECM negates the advantage of using advanced equipment like Artemis, NARC, and SSRMs. It forces them to act like older equipment.

In MWO ECM negates the basic functions of weapon systems, making LRMs and SSRMS unlock-able, thus they cannot fire.

I think advanced equipment should be used to counter ECM. Kind of the opposite of TT. TAG and NARC would allow mechs protected by ECM to be locked on (kind of how TAG works already). BAP would detect ECM bubbles as a 'disturbance' on the mini-map.

Thoughts?

[Saevel]

ECM just needs readjusting, it's OP currently with the way the game works.

[Willie Sauerland]

I'm hoping the PPC effects will negate ECM for a short duration. If that were implemented, would this advanced equipment still be needed?

[Kampfer]

TAG should be able to counter ECM on the target being tagged

[Willie Sauerland]

Kampfer, on 01 January 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

TAG should be able to counter ECM on the target being tagged

It does, but it has to remain on the target from launch until the missiles impact. This can be very difficult to achieve if the LRM boat is a significant distance from the front line.

[Davers]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'm hoping the PPC effects will negate ECM for a short duration. If that were implemented, would this advanced equipment still be needed?

While I am not against any PPC buff, I would also rather the EW stuff in game actually did something other than ECM. No one used NARC except for the first day it was in game. It's too heavy, ammo dependant (with a pretty slow speed shot), and still requires LOS. TAG is really worlds better.

And it was said PPCs would get an ECM effect, not an ECCM (electronic counter-countermeasures). If it was disrupting another mech's ECM it would be ECCM. Maybe this was just a typo on the Dev's part, but as written it does not say PPCs will counter ECM, but only add to the effectiveness of it.

[Willie Sauerland]

Davers, on 01 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

While I am not against any PPC buff, I would also rather the EW stuff in game actually did something other than ECM. No one used NARC except for the first day it was in game. It's too heavy, ammo dependant (with a pretty slow speed shot), and still requires LOS. TAG is really worlds better.

And it was said PPCs would get an ECM effect, not an ECCM (electronic counter-countermeasures). If it was disrupting another mech's ECM it would be ECCM. Maybe this was just a typo on the Dev's part, but as written it does not say PPCs will counter ECM, but only add to the effectiveness of it.

They stated it would have something similar to a small EMP effect which affects electronics. It is not a far stretch of the imagination to think it would disrupt ECM.

However, since this is purely speculation I thought I would ask the question since I find the idea interesting on the face of your suggestion and see how it would alter your suggestion, if at all.

[Davers]

Did they say EMP? I thought I had read ECM. I could be wrong.

Since it would only be of a short duration, a few seconds at most, I don't see a problem having it in addition to my suggestion. It's not like you could use PPCs to negate ECM long enough to target LRMs. Maybe just long enough to fire one shot of streaks (and probably not even then, since you would have to acquire the lock, then fire and have them hit before the effect wore off.) In fact PPC EMP would only be good for having the targetted unit showing up for a few seconds on the mini-map/HUD.

[MasterBLB]

What's really needed is to strip off the current ECM all PGI add-ons (lock prevent and null signature system alike).

Edited by MasterBLB, 01 January 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Actually, the current ECM suite acts as an EMP, but only selectively.

[Davers]

These suggestions are based on Dev statement that they were happy with ECM and were not planning any major changes to how it functions.

I would just like to see the other EW equipment being more useful and actually used, rather than just being shelved (other than TAG).

[Iron Mouse]

ECM is wrong in the game.

If they follow BT Rules ECM does not make units invisible to radar.

The DEV team messed up with how they made ECM as it is now. They stopped the LRM and Streak boats but now it has backfired. People have gone to SRM boats and laser/canon boats.

ECM is supposed work as such..

The unit with the ECM has a bubble around it..and it is a small bubble. For example we will say the bubble extends 400meters. NOW if a enemy is 500meters away, he/she can lock on with LRMs and targeting computers and fire. Once the LRMs enter the 400 meter bubble they continue on the flight path but lose lock and stop following. Of course Streaks will not work either nor targeting computers.

PLEASE fix. I know a lot of players that have left the game because of how much the ECM nerfs and people are being forced to used mech configs they really don't want to.

[Davers]

So, in the 14th Dec 2012 article on PCGamer, Paul was quoted on the issue of ECM.

"I also asked Inouye if Piranha is happy with the recent implementation of the ECM (electronic counter-measures) system to MWO, which allows some mechs to equip radar and lock-on jamming equipment. "The effect [of ECM] is working as intended and forces players to play a lot smarter," he said. "Specialized Mechs still have their place on the battlefield but they are going to need the assistance of their teammates to succeed. If you plan on taking specialized Mech into a match, plan wisely and have alternate weapon systems that will help you with mid to long-range combat. People are thinking we need to severely 'nerf' the ECM. This is not the case at all. There is already 1 counter-ECM item in the game (TAG), and likely there will be a couple more involving modules and weapon effects.""


Assuming that ECM is working as intended as said by the lead designer in the above article, I am talking about how other EW equipment can find their use.

This is not a thread about how OP/Fine/Poor ECM is. I am talking about the role and use of BAP, TAG, NARC, and PPC EMP effects with the current ECM.

Thank you.

[StalaggtIKE]

The problem is, ECM currently counters BAP, TAG and NARC. So if it is working as intended, wouldn't that mean they do not plan on changing this as well?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 02 January 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Davers]

StalaggtIKE, on 02 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

The problem is, ECM currently counters BAP, TAG and NARC. So if it is working as intended, wouldn't that mean they do not plan on changing this as well?

That is true.

But that is what I am trying to change. If they want to block basic targeting and radar functions, then I am advocating having BAP and NARC be upped in usefulness.

C'mon! NARC is prolly the most useless piece of equipment. NO ONE USES IT. And then they made it completely blocked by ECM.

The forums are full of people asking for new equipment from anti-ECCM components to ECM targeting streak missiles.

All I am asking is that the equipment we currently have to be part of EW, rather than just flat countered by ECM.

[StonedDead]

Davers, I totally agree. I asked for a weapon to counteract ECM if they were not going to make other systems capable of counteracting it. In other MW titles, ECM was not the end-all of electronic warfare and should not be here. ECM decreased the range of locks and increased lock on time only, it did not make the mech totally invisible to radar even when in line of sight. In other MW titles, BAP, NARC, and TAG were means to restore lost signal and locks to at least the weapons standard times and range. If the enemy was not running ECM then BAP, NARC, and TAG actually gave you an increase in those ranges and times. If they had ECM and you had none of the other systems, you suffered a REDUCED range and increased lock on times.

These systems, ECM on one side and BAP, TAG, and NARC on the other should essentially negate each other. None should have the advantage over the other. I think ECM is wrong as it is, but also the other systems as well. ECM should not counter itself, the other systems should do it.

[Davers]

Yup. ECM as the primary counter to ECM is pretty bad. If NARC helped counter ECM, maybe Ravens would actually keep it on their mechs!

I think TAG is fine with the added range. It's just NARC and BAP that need to have more functionality.

[Strum Wealh]

As noted in another thread, the capabilities of MWO's implementation of ECM are based on BT canon (drawing from both gameplay rules and background/fluff writing).

Pages 100-101 of Tactical Operations indicates that seven or more tons of Communications Equipment (all 'Mechs come with one ton) can generate an ECCM field similar in range and strength to ECM's "counter mode".
Carrying three to six tons of Communications Equipment, however, produces only half of the ECCM effect (e.g. half-strength at the same range).

Quote

Communications equipment (see p. 212, TechManual) can be used to generate an ECCM field with the same area of effect as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM Suite. Any unit that mounts 3 to 6 tons of communications equipment equals half of an ECM suite when generating an ECCM field. If the unit mounts 7 or more tons of communications equipment, it equals 1 ECM suite when generating an ECCM.
Any time communications equipment is used to generate an ECCM field, all other bonus modifiers are lost.

Tactical Operations also includes a set of advanced rules for Active Probes, on page 99.

Quote

Hidden Units (Expanded)
In standard-rules play, the player determines if any enemy units lie within the detection radius of an active probe after the unit has finished moving (see p. 129, TW). As an optional rule, the effect radius can be active throughout the unit’s entire movement. This allows a probe-equipped unit to detect hidden units along its movement path, whereas the standard rules can result in a probe passing a hidden unit without detecting it.

Targeting
Another optional rule allows active probes to aid in targeting enemy units within the probe’s range. If the target is within the probe’s range and line of sight exists to the target, reduce the total to-hit modifier for firing through and into woods/jungles by 1 (that is, reduce the total woods/jungles modifier by 1, regardless of the number of woods/jungle hexes involved.

Concealing Information
A unit with an active probe can also acquire information about an enemy unit’s status if players are playing with concealed record sheets (see Concealing Information, p. 219).

Minefields
A unit with an active probe can potentially reveal minefields (see Weapon-Delivered Minefields, p. 210).

ECM Suites
A unit with an active probe will find it easier to overcome an ECM’s ghost target ability (see Ghost Targets, p. 101)

Arguably, a more-liberal reading of the advanced "Targeting" rule for BAP could potentially justify some form of (very limited - e.g. very, very short-range) ECCM/"counter-ECM" effect...