11 replies to this topic

[Tyop]

I currently run a setup with 4x med laser and 1ac20, using the stock 260standard engine.

Is it worth dropping the engine to fit a second ac20 on? Or is the loss of speed (around 15 mph) not worth it.

Im trying to debate this before I drop money in on a smaller slower engine.

[Op4blushift]

The ac20 cat is a fairly common (and somewhat cheese) build. I think the setup is basically as follows:

-Endo Steel
-double heatsinks
-2 AC20s
-Standard 200 Engine +2 double heat sinks for it
-As much ammo as you can cram in (about 8 tons)

If you want you can drop a ton or two of ammo for backup lasers. Personally I think the build is okay, I played around with it a bit but I really don't like the loss of speed as you're pretty much screwed if you caught out in the open or if you're trying to dodge lrms. The amount of firepower you can pack is pretty insane though.

[Halan HR]

You could try CPLT-K2 if you want to test out dual ac/20 and keep your engine, course only 28 shots.

[Doc Holliday]

This is how my friend and I like our double AC-20 builds.

-Endo Steel
-Double Heatsinks
-2 AC-20s
-2 Medium lasers
-Standard 200 Engine plus the required two heatsinks
-7 tons of ammo

Armor is total 352 and allocated like this:

Head: 18
Center torso: 63
Center Torso Rear: 21
Right Torso: 45
Right Torso Rear: 15
Left Torso: 45
Left Torso Rear: 15
Arms: 37 each
Legs: 28 each

CPLT-K2
It's slow but deadly. Also the reason the armor is so low on legs is because no one ever goes for the legs on this build anyway. I have never yet lost a leg with this one. And yes this build is very fun and very worth it. If you need more info, tips, etc. just let me know.

Halan HR, on 04 January 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

You could try CPLT-K2 if you want to test out dual ac/20 and keep your engine, course only 28 shots.

I can tell you from experience that build is going to be vastly subpar. It's not worth giving up the ammo and medium lasers to keep the stock engine. Using two rounds per volley, you will blow through those 28 rounds in no time and be left with nothing but 2 small lasers.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 04 January 2013 - 12:39 AM.

[Halan HR]

My reply was meant just for a test, before dropping money on another engine

[bantapoo]

you can fine tune the armor to match your build and the K2 hitbox specificity.
I'd choose this armor profile:
40/12 on each torsos, knowing they're harder to hit than other mechs
68/14 central torso, you can't go less on this, its the most frequent hit part of your mech.
20 on arms, knowing that medium lasers are only secondary weapons
and 30 on legs, where you would fit 4 of your ammo.
with that profile, you can save up enough tonnage to equip the 210 std engine and achive 56kph with speed tweak.
alternatively you can throw 1 ammo and learning firing discipline. You'd buff your arms to be able to use them more as shields.
Anyway for me, going lower than 56kph is really handicapping, especially when trying to jump on atlases and stalkers back.

Edited by bantapoo, 04 January 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Doc Holliday]

bantapoo, on 04 January 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

you can fine tune the armor to match your build and the K2 hitbox specificity.
I'd choose this armor profile:
40/12 on each torsos, knowing they're harder to hit than other mechs
68/14 central torso, you can't go less on this, its the most frequent hit part of your mech.
20 on arms, knowing that medium lasers are only secondary weapons
and 30 on legs, where you would fit 4 of your ammo.
with that profile, you can save up enough tonnage to equip the 210 std engine and achive 56kph with speed tweak.
alternatively you can throw 1 ammo and learning firing discipline. You'd buff your arms to be able to use them more as shields.
Anyway for me, going lower than 56kph is really handicapping, especially when trying to jump on atlases and stalkers back.

It might be worth moving more center torso armor to front. It is not worth dropping side torso armor. I have lost one or both AC-20s plenty of times. Reducing armor on arms just makes them get blown up that much quicker and exposes side torsos even more. You also don't need more armor on the legs, as I said before no one shoots the legs. Yes it's very slow. I've tested some tweaks to put in a faster engine, but all of them just don't seem to make it better.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 04 January 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[De La Fresniere]

I considered making a 2xAC/20 K2. It sounded like a lot of fun (and hey, maybe it is).

But after messing with it in the test lab... I concluded it was far too limited for my tastes. Slow, short-ranged, somewhat low armor, can run out of ammo quite quickly, the ammo is explosive... yikes.

Of course the damage is pretty great and the screen shake is a nice little bonus, plus the heat is low. But IMO that's not enough to compensate for all those limitations.

In comparison, the Flame moves much faster and has more armor, it can do almost as much damage (36 instead of 40) with much greater accuracy, at a much greater range, and it never runs out of ammo. After experiencing that, I don't think I'd be able to stand the 2xAC/20 K2.

[Doc Holliday]

De La Fresniere, on 04 January 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I considered making a 2xAC/20 K2. It sounded like a lot of fun (and hey, maybe it is).

But after messing with it in the test lab... I concluded it was far too limited for my tastes. Slow, short-ranged, somewhat low armor, can run out of ammo quite quickly, the ammo is explosive... yikes.

Of course the damage is pretty great and the screen shake is a nice little bonus, plus the heat is low. But IMO that's not enough to compensate for all those limitations.

In comparison, the Flame moves much faster and has more armor, it can do almost as much damage (36 instead of 40) with much greater accuracy, at a much greater range, and it never runs out of ammo. After experiencing that, I don't think I'd be able to stand the 2xAC/20 K2.

Well first let me say, I own a Flame and I love it - it's given me some of my best matches ever. (One of my favorites was 759 damage, 6 kills, 2 assists.)

But you can't compare 4x LLAS with 2x AC-20. They work totally differently. First, you're only going to get that full 36 damage on one spot if the target isn't moving. Second, you got a lot more heat to deal with. You just can't really imagine what a double AC-20 build does until you've tried it. My friend and I both run one, and once when we were teamed up we managed to unload on a dragon's CT at the same time. He went from barely damaged armor to dead, just like that. 80 damage in less than half a second all on the same spot. Even just 40 damage in one punch all on the same spot - it's just insane. Light mechs almost always die in one hit. My friend once got 3 kills with his last 6 rounds - finished off one mech, killed a commando, then a cicada.

[De La Fresniere]

Doc Holliday, on 05 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Well first let me say, I own a Flame and I love it - it's given me some of my best matches ever. (One of my favorites was 759 damage, 6 kills, 2 assists.)

But you can't compare 4x LLAS with 2x AC-20. They work totally differently. First, you're only going to get that full 36 damage on one spot if the target isn't moving. Second, you got a lot more heat to deal with. You just can't really imagine what a double AC-20 build does until you've tried it. My friend and I both run one, and once when we were teamed up we managed to unload on a dragon's CT at the same time. He went from barely damaged armor to dead, just like that. 80 damage in less than half a second all on the same spot. Even just 40 damage in one punch all on the same spot - it's just insane. Light mechs almost always die in one hit. My friend once got 3 kills with his last 6 rounds - finished off one mech, killed a commando, then a cicada.

Well I've got around 20 ping, so unless I'm firing at a super fast mech (mostly Lights, Cicadas and the odd CN9-D with a huge Engine), I *can* place all of that 36 damage in one section, almost every time. With arm-mounted lasers, it's pretty easy to keep your reticule on a specific location. Double AC/20s do place the damage on a single location (there's never any spread at all), but it's much harder to accurately hit that section. Like I said... 36 damage instead of 40, not a big difference, and I get more overall accuracy with lasers.

My personal favorite was 1,191 damage, 5 kills, 3 assists. Team got wiped out by two Atlases, a Stalker and a 'pult, and I had to deal with the four last opponents alone. Using a 2xAC/20 K2... I wouldn't have been able to snipe opponents on their way in and might not have killed that Commando on my own. I *would* have been able to take down that damaged Atlas, but probably wouldn't have been able to hit the Cataphract's damaged right shoulder at 200+m to disable it so quickly. I probably could have finished off the Hunchback via raw power (as you mentioned, not having to deal with heat), but probably wouldn't have been able to kill the barely scatched 'pult which I crippled by destroying a leg and, quickly moving away from it, killed from 500m while it impotently fired its MLs at me. I would have run out of ammo long before killing them all, and being so slow and less able to jump in and out of cover, they probably would have killed me before then anyway.

Maybe it's just my personal playstyle... I'm much better with lasers than ballistics aim-wise, I need a certain amount of speed, I never want to run out of ammo, and the range is just a really big bonus.

2xAC/20 really does sound like a fun build, and I'm sure it's far from useless, but I'm fairly certain it's nowhere as good as what I normally use, especially for me... so that's a big obstacle. I might try eventually, but only if I'm bored, and I still wouldn't quite recommend it.

One thing I'll say for AC/20s... it's really satisfying to kill Lights with one.

[Doc Holliday]

Yes, the double AC-20 is certainly more of a niche build and completely incapable of escaping like a dragon (but then, no catapult build can escape from a good dragon build ;-) ). I wasn't trying to say it's the best build, or suitable for all occasions - just simply that it's a lot of fun, and totally different from anything else you'll run. It does take some time to get good with the 20's, but once you do.. OMG. My friend is better with it than I am, and has gotten 3 kills before when he was forced to play without a HUD due to the "yellow screen" bug. But we're both good enough with it now that we can fairly reliably peg light mechs circling around us in 1-3 volleys. But yes, there will be situations where you just get overwhelmed and you just can't kill them fast enough to survive.

[De La Fresniere]

Doc Holliday, on 05 January 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

just simply that it's a lot of fun, and totally different from anything else you'll run

Yes, exactly! That's why I'm considering it at all. If they finally double ammo to compensate for the double armor (should be 10 shots per ton, not 7), I expect I'll want to give it a try.

It'll most likely be quite a while though. I was thinking of going back to my 6xML Cicada, that thing was surprisingly good...