55 replies to this topic

[ArmandTulsen]

Skyfaller, on 04 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Actually, a Com-2D will **** anything it gets in knife circling range if it has the Holy Lagshield of Antioch and ECM on his mech. I find it FUBAR beyond belief that even in my stalker firing 5 medium lasers at it and HITTING it as I can see on my end and the damn thing just doesnt take damage. Worse even, the instant it actually gets into range of LRMs (moves past 180m) and I can TAG+LOCK it... the LRMs all miss him since he is traveling faster than 100kph. Lagshield netcode of utter fail. The ECM prevents others from locking him and his lagshield also prevents others from hitting him. Heck, Ive seen ravens and commandos circle an entire team of mechs that laser them like crazy for whole minutes and they dont take any damage despite everyone actually SEEING they are hitting these 100kph+ lights.

LOL

[Asmudius Heng]

PiemasterXL, on 04 January 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

LRM boats are still around. Not a fortnight ago I encountered a Catapult with nothing but LRM launchers.

Spoiler

Then I ripped off his arms and asked him what he learned from the demonstration.

"Grumble grumble light mech with ecm grumble grumble I hate this game"
TL:DR Boats need to be smarter with ecm now, it no longer hang-back and fire away. Bring TAG, bring two medium lasers, bring your brain.

How would trying to TAG a fast light mech who knows how to use cover to break locks and close within your minimum range help?

How would two medium lasers help against a light who is far more agile than yourself actually help when yuo are a big easy target to hit for the light?

Without ECM the light had every advantage on the LRM boat anyway as long as they didnt do anything stupid which was where the LRM boat shined at punishing the open rushers.

LRM boats always suffered to lights who wanted them dead - ECM has nothing to do with it.

LRM boats were easy mode before I grant you but TAG is hardly a solution against light mechs - against heavier mechs who move slower sure.

ECM is not easy mode as you still have the power to own it up with LRMs and SSRMs ... unles other ECM is around to protect the other side.

Nothing has changed - LRMs just need to be overhauled in how they work as does ECM and all other electronics and guidance based weapons systems.

See my thread for more info:

http://mwomercs.com/...m-tagnarc-post/

---

Seeing you are using an anecdote let me use mine from a few nights back as well.

In a raven no ECM - Awesome missiles boater with a heap of medlas was tearing into my team but was all alone. I charged him using cover and wore a volley or two before i closed. Then i ran around tearign his to shreds as he overheated with his medlas.

I took some damage and probably could have taken him but would have been close befoe my team mate came in and finished him off.

No ECM, just cover use, AMS, speed, agility, and accuracy.

He actually did a very good job apart from being so far from his team - LRMs working fine, but lights using speed to counter his LRMs also working well.

Neither of our examples are statistically relevent though - just shows some isolated incidents.

[demoyn]

The only "tactical reality" you need to understand here is that LRMs sucked even BEFORE ECM. Any opponent with an IQ of over 80 will just duck behind cover and make you completely worthless until they're within 180 meters of you where, again, you're completely worthless.

[PANZERBUNNY]

demoyn, on 05 January 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

The only "tactical reality" you need to understand here is that LRMs sucked even BEFORE ECM. Any opponent with an IQ of over 80 will just duck behind cover and make you completely worthless until they're within 180 meters of you where, again, you're completely worthless.

Shortsighted response.

While you may be worthless in attacking them, you have put them on the defensive and out of commission, having to change their tactics while you can start firing at someone else, turning back to fire at them when they poke their head out.

People see the incoming missile warning and run for cover.

This is where a small LRM can be handy, when you know they are trying to "waste your ammo".

Keeping peoples heads down while your team maneuvers is the name of the game my friend.

If you're skilled you can even LOS fire a few volleys, lock onto someone else, lock onto someone else when the last LRMS fired are mid flight.

You can put a decent number of enemy mechs instantly on the defensive with LRMS.

Multiple AC 2's work well at doing that. People don't like getting rocked around with rapid fire weapons.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 05 January 2013 - 02:04 AM.

[Jason1138]

take any atlas and put 2 large lasers or 4 mediums on it, then 2 LRM20's or 3 LRM15's, then all the ammo it will hold

works great as long as you know how to LRM boat. most matches i never even fire the lasers

[demoyn]

PANZERBUNNY, on 05 January 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Shortsighted response.

While you may be worthless in attacking them, you have put them on the defensive and out of commission, having to change their tactics while you can start firing at someone else, turning back to fire at them when they poke their head out.

People see the incoming missile warning and run for cover.

This is where a small LRM can be handy, when you know they are trying to "waste your ammo".

Keeping peoples heads down while your team maneuvers is the name of the game my friend.

If you're skilled you can even LOS fire a few volleys, lock onto someone else, lock onto someone else when the last LRMS fired are mid flight.

You can put a decent number of enemy mechs instantly on the defensive with LRMS.

Multiple AC 2's work well at doing that. People don't like getting rocked around with rapid fire weapons.

Outstanding! So then your team maneuvers to them and they get destroyed 7v8. Great strategy! But hey, you suggest AC2s also, so you obviously don't know how to play competitively. You can kill noobs in pub matches with flamers and machine guns. That doesn't make them useful.

[Jakob Knight]

As others in this thread have said, the name of the game now is multimission. The only units that can be pure 'support' units are ballistic and energy weapons, as these are seen by the video gamers as somehow 'more skilled' weapons than LRMs for this job, and the devs have caved into this attitude (being only video gamers themselves). Taking a pure LRM unit to support your team is actually a hinderance now, because one ECM unit on the enemy side can turn you into a waste of a slot on a team. And by 'pure LRM unit', I mean any build that has so much LRM/Streak weaponry that it can't mount any other worthwhile weapons than that (an Awesome with 3 LRM launchers and a single Medium Laser, for instance).

Instead, as you will note with the builds on this page, the idea is to have LRMs on your mech alongside enough other weapons to actually be able to fight without them (which is why so many people only use Stalkers now). You may not do much damage with your LRM fire, or even fire them at all in a battle now, but they are there if you get the opportunity. By not specializing in weapons the devs have allowed to be completely nullified just by the inclusion of a 1.5 ton module, you'll save your team wondering why you even bothered to play.

The -only- time a pure LRM support unit is workable now is if you are playing Premades and you can be sure others on your team will compensate for your weakness. If you have an experienced ECM TAG scout to spot for you, -and- the enemy has less ECM than you, -and- the other teammates can hold back the enemy from putting you in an enemy ECM shell, then a dedicated missile unit can be a great asset. However, this does require alot of teamwork, and can fall apart if any of the above doesn't happen.

In short, I can't say any 'Missile Boat' that relies entirely on LRMs or Streaks is really a viable unit in the battlefield as it currently stands. Configure instead for a missile-equipped unit that can fight effectively if those missile weapons can't fire (in other words, don't rely on any missiles that require lock-ons for your build to work).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 07 January 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

demoyn, on 07 January 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

Outstanding! So then your team maneuvers to them and they get destroyed 7v8. Great strategy! But hey, you suggest AC2s also, so you obviously don't know how to play competitively. You can kill noobs in pub matches with flamers and machine guns. That doesn't make them useful.

Ac 2's in a premade work.

Just because you can't use a weapon system effectively, doesn't mean it's a write off.

I advocate training drops with nothing but flamers and Ac 2's on your mechs to promote team work, unit cohesion and command.

You either work together or lose.

Ac2's are very useful when they end up dictating the maneuvers and motions of your enemies.

Competitive isn't straight up what I can dish out to another enemy mech.

Effecting the flow of battle can have MORE of an effect than the most l33t of OP weapon systems, in some matches.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 07 January 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

demoyn, on 07 January 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

Outstanding! So then your team maneuvers to them and they get destroyed 7v8. Great strategy! But hey, you suggest AC2s also, so you obviously don't know how to play competitively. You can kill noobs in pub matches with flamers and machine guns. That doesn't make them useful.

I love how people throw around "this weapon isn't useful when you play competitively," as if they're a pro gamer who is sponsored and is thus an authority on what is good or not.

Jakob Knight, on 07 January 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

As others in this thread have said, the name of the game now is multimission. The only units that can be pure 'support' units are ballistic and energy weapons, as these are seen by the video gamers as somehow 'more skilled' weapons than LRMs for this job, and the devs have caved into this attitude (being only video gamers themselves). Taking a pure LRM unit to support your team is actually a hinderance now, because one ECM unit on the enemy side can turn you into a waste of a slot on a team. And by 'pure LRM unit', I mean any build that has so much LRM/Streak weaponry that it can't mount any other worthwhile weapons than that (an Awesome with 3 LRM launchers and a single Medium Laser, for instance)...

...(in other words, don't rely on any missiles that require lock-ons for your build to work).

I started playing again a couple of days ago, and this is definitely what I'm seeing. The only builds that field LRMs now are stalkers and awesomes, and the awesomes that do so aren't very good. Definitely a hugely disappointing development. I really hope I don't get so frustrated by decisions to do things like this that I quit. Because really, this is the best Mechwarrior video game ever produced in terms of online competition. Granted, every other one was absolutely horrible.

[Joseph Mallan]

demoyn, on 07 January 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

You can kill noobs in pub matches with flamers and machine guns. That doesn't make them useful.

No. No you really can't. That is a mere Myth.

[Ewigan]

Here's my LRM-boat:

I love Eating ECM Atlasses that are stupid enough to get in my LOS

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6de2326518f1064

[Jakob Knight]

Ewigan, on 07 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Here's my LRM-boat:

I love Eating ECM Atlasses that are stupid enough to get in my LOS

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6de2326518f1064

Another Stalker. And with enough lasers to take up the slack if they become useless. I think if you dropped this to one laser, and used all the resulting tonnage to upgrade your LRMs, this would not work as well.

As I said, multimission. It's the lasers that keep this mech useful in the battles in the current environment.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 07 January 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Universe Man]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Cat-A1. Or...maybe I'm not surprised, considering it only has missile hardpoints. This is probably why people just load it out with SRM6's.

[Kernel]

I currently run a Stalker 5m with artemis 2xLRM20 and 2xLRM15 with 4 med lasers. I stay within 200m of my front line. I have a tag and use it when I can. ECM is tricky at times but nothing im going to complain about. Its a mechanic that also protects me lol.

With that said I personally feel you have to have some kind of "non boat" part of my build and for me its simply 4 med lasers. It has saved my *** plenty of times against annoying lights/meds or at least whittled them down for my team to come and clean up.

And to answer someones posts earlier about whether you get full dmg for running 2 lrm20 and 2 lrm15....yes u do
When i switched from 3 LRM20 down to 2, added 2xLRM15, dmg spiked hard overall.

One of my fave kills was an awesome at 300m shoots my flank, I turn target alpha the missle salvo, alpha lasers at CT, followed by second missle alpha....Dead. Span of like 3-4 secs. Turned and continued my LRM support lol

[5th tier]

I prefer non-boating but these two mech`s below will serve the lrm support role with a bonus, once your ammo is depleted (or destroyed) you can still brawl. The C1 I have extensively tested and can say its effective and cost effective, the 5s is still a work in progress.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6fcfea375a87318

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4ea0a9f4f26e7a0

[Skyfaller]

Kernel, on 13 January 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I currently run a Stalker 5m with artemis 2xLRM20 and 2xLRM15 with 4 med lasers. I stay within 200m of my front line. I have a tag and use it when I can. ECM is tricky at times but nothing im going to complain about. Its a mechanic that also protects me lol.

With that said I personally feel you have to have some kind of "non boat" part of my build and for me its simply 4 med lasers. It has saved my *** plenty of times against annoying lights/meds or at least whittled them down for my team to come and clean up.

And to answer someones posts earlier about whether you get full dmg for running 2 lrm20 and 2 lrm15....yes u do
When i switched from 3 LRM20 down to 2, added 2xLRM15, dmg spiked hard overall.

One of my fave kills was an awesome at 300m shoots my flank, I turn target alpha the missle salvo, alpha lasers at CT, followed by second missle alpha....Dead. Span of like 3-4 secs. Turned and continued my LRM support lol

My 5M has 3 LRM20s, 2 SSRMs and 4 med lasers plus a TAG. Works very nice.

The problem with the ECM lights that exploit the fail netcode is that they get inside the LRM min range and you cant get hits to register on them. The SSRM's dont lock in either due to the idiotic no-lock bubble effect that not even TAG counters (and it should IMO) in those conditions.

I begun taking 1 flamer , 3 med lasers and the TAG simply because the flamer allowed me to completely blind the lagshield exploiter. He couldnt see me as he circled at ludicrous speed nor could he navigate...which hilariously made these little buttnuggets run into buildings and walls that stop them on their tracks and I can land some hits.

Its sad but it seems exploiting a flaw in the game mechanics is the only way to fight an even worse flaw in game mechanics.

Edited by Skyfaller, 14 January 2013 - 10:28 AM.