12 replies to this topic

[Havelock Vetinari]

I don't want to start certain discussions all over. I think it is o.k., that MWO converts the TT rules in its own way.

But I got the impression that the current conversion methods will create (unsolvable?) problems when Clan technology gets implemented.

MWO designers chose to solve the problem that 1 round is 10 seconds in TT which is too slow in an action simulation, so that weapons have faster fire rates in MWO, by tweaking armor and weapon and heat values. So far so good (or not - matter of old discussion).

But how shall this current method work with Clan technologoy without changing the current basics all over again?

After all Clan technology basically means much more fire power (lighter/more/better weapons, more heat dissipation). The defensive boost of Clan Technology is very small in comparison (mainly more, cheaper speed). So combined with the faster fire rates of weapons, compared to TT, the extra armor won't prevent fights from being over very fast because quite often 1 or 2 alpha strikes will be the end of the opponent's mech. I don't think that this will be fun.

So what will be the solution?

Maybe Clan technology will be the point when PGI will have to think about the old suggestion, to convert more along TT rules - by adapting weapon damages to the fire rates based on the 10 seconds round of TT (so AC/10 would deal 2,5 damage for instance).

In any case I can't imagine how you can implement Clan Technology without tweaking weapon damage output (or armor again?). IMO the mechs' damage output will just be too much for a decent duration of an average fight.

[Cebi]

Filthy clanners!

I for one hope to see them nerfed to the ground! Though I am open to the idea of fitting nice new "IS" branded clantech in my Mech...

[Duvanor]

They can give Clan Energy Weapons a slightly longer recharge time and make the beams of lasers last longer so that damage will spread more. Range of clanweapons is nice to have, but on the current maps it will not matter too much. ACs and LB-X ACs will be okay more or less. But I dunno how to balance Clan LRM, Streak and Ultra ACs. That will be challenging.

Edited by Duvanor, 05 January 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Havelock Vetinari, on 05 January 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

I don't want to start certain discussions all over. I think it is o.k., that MWO converts the TT rules in its own way.

But I got the impression that the current conversion methods will create (unsolvable?) problems when Clan technology gets implemented.

MWO designers chose to solve the problem that 1 round is 10 seconds in TT which is too slow in an action simulation, so that weapons have faster fire rates in MWO, by tweaking armor and weapon and heat values. So far so good (or not - matter of old discussion).

But how shall this current method work with Clan technologoy without changing the current basics all over again?

After all Clan technology basically means much more fire power (lighter/more/better weapons, more heat dissipation). The defensive boost of Clan Technology is very small in comparison (mainly more, cheaper speed). So combined with the faster fire rates of weapons, compared to TT, the extra armor won't prevent fights from being over very fast because quite often 1 or 2 alpha strikes will be the end of the opponent's mech. I don't think that this will be fun.

So what will be the solution?

Maybe Clan technology will be the point when PGI will have to think about the old suggestion, to convert more along TT rules - by adapting weapon damages to the fire rates based on the 10 seconds round of TT (so AC/10 would deal 2,5 damage for instance).

In any case I can't imagine how you can implement Clan Technology without tweaking weapon damage output (or armor again?). IMO the mechs' damage output will just be too much for a decent duration of an average fight.

Yeah, I have my problems with that as well.

If they really just take the IS weapons, and apply the differences between IS and CLan weapons,then Clan weapons remain superior, and Clan mechs will deal more damage. Overall, the pace of combat will increase once Clan mechs are involved - and I am not sure that ideas like lowering Clan Mech group sizes or similar balancing methods can compensate correctly for that.

I have no confidence that PGI has a handle on this that will work. It's a difficult problem and considering their work in balancing so far, I am just not optimistic.

I had some polls on the topic in the past:
http://mwomercs.com/...vel-2-clan-tech

http://mwomercs.com/...ace-of-the-game

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 January 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[CheeseThief]

Asymetical balancing is always good.

Two lances vs one star seems like a pretty popular idea on these forums, and it lets both sides keep their lore advantages over each other.

Edited by CheeseThief, 05 January 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

CheeseThief, on 05 January 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Asymetical balancing is always good.

Two lances vs one star seems like a pretty popular idea on these forums, and it lets both sides keep their lore advantages over each other.

I wonder what the right level of asymmetry would be...

But I also wonder - if you're the Cheese Thief, does that mean you steal Clan Mechs and gear?

[CheeseThief]

I am big on the IS policy of looting and pillaging, yes.

[Taurick]

3 lances IS mechs vs 2 stars6 clan omni's might be alright

I think in practice, the numbers superiority will give a larger advantage than it does with TT. Especially if we are allowed to put clantech on our IS mechs.

[Tangelis]

Hot discussions (or argueing) on the forums concering this subject. Not to mention a pletora of suggestions to bridge the gap. Maybe it just needs a simpler approach.

Clan mechs and tech were simply superior. In a 1 on 1 they would literaly bowl over an IS of the same class. That was the fear of them, perhaps even the literal point of them in regards to advancing the universe story itself beyond the same old succession wars events pre 3050. They were good but getting stale. The universe needed something to progress......welcome to the clans.

As a player of TT I loved it, simply because it was utterly new and challenging. Despite the superior tech and mechs etc however it wasn't as much as steamroll as the universe suggested. Ultimately, a random die roll determined much. Sadly that can not be translated to a simulation.

I don't think the solution is as cut and dry as peolpe have suggested (myself included). Balance being the target and finding that target I think will be as much trial and error like many other things have been.

While it is absolutely true that translating TT to simuation can not be done without considerable modification or outright reworking of several if not many mehcanics, everything we have in game right now started via the TT platform as a starting point. What we have now is what it has evolved too through testing. No....it isn't exactly perfect but considerably closer to the goal than what it all started as. IE: the system needs more tweaks here and there rather than complete overhauls.

It is difficult to balance the clans. It stands to reason that IS will eventually salvage or be able to access clan tech. At that point, once IS mechs can mount clan weapons etc, thier advantage or superiority over the IS will be greatly diminished if not eliminated all together. How then do you balance the invasion if eventualy those mechanics will become obsolete?

Maybe they shouldn't. Maybe the Clans Should kick our tails (or at the very least have an advantage) when the invasion happens as the universe suggests. I mean that is what essentially happened. In time IS players will eventually have access to to the same tech maybe even the mechs themselves and level the playing field. Falling into balance.

Unfortunately we have no idea how PGI intends to go about the introduction of the clans let alone the invasion so it is all speculation at this point. We may be well off thier vision all together. Whatever the case I am sure they are testing it as we speak.

Likely why we are getting a slow crawl of mechs to play with (1 a month...bah), because they are not simply working on the ones announced. Clans kind of need mechs to invade and they need to work to do so. I guess time will tell.

[Helbourne]

OH damn, I can't replace my large laser because this damn planet I am on does not have one and I just use my last one I brought with me.

At some point I would hope they would put repair and rearm back in. War is not a zero sum game. If your stuck on a planet with nothing but small lasers, guess you would have to made due now would you.

'matches' and 'community warfare' I would hope turn out to be different. I sure hope fate of planets are not decided by the current 'Match' system. This to me is more of a Solaris style match.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Implying there's any form of "conversion" at this point.

The devs are just trying to make things work now, there's no conversion. it's just toss crap in and hope it works, if it doesn't, tweak it till it does.

[Sears]

I think in one of the NGNG podcasts Garth talked about the possibility of how MW4 did it. Lighter and more powerful but a lot hotter than IS weapons. Not sure how popular that was with the MW4 community.

Also everyone has been in one of those games where someone gets 1500 damage plus most of the kills. That's just one mech, and an IS one at that. Throw in five clan mechs and they'll wipe the floor of an IS team.

[Sug]

TT values for a IS medium laser are 3 Heat and 5 Damage, in MWO they are 4 Heat and 5 Damage 1 Hps, 1.25 dps, 270m range.

TT values for a Clan ER med laser are 5 Heat 7 Damage, 450m range.

Assuming PGI balances the heat we'll probably see the Clan ER med laser at 6 Heat 7 Damage 1.5 Hps 450 range.

Which is pretty close to our current IS Large Laser; 9 damage 7 heat 1.64 Hps, 2.12 dps, 450m range.


The TT Clan ER Large Laser: 10 damage 12 heat 750m range almost seems balanced. If they kept TT values it would have 2.5 dps and 3 hps

TT IS Large Laser: 8 damage 8 heat 450m range
TT IS ER Large Laser: 8 damage 12 heat 570m range

MWO IS Large Laser : 9 damage 7 heat 450m range 1.64 Hps 2.12 dps
MWO IS ER Large Laser: 9 damage 10 heat 675m range 2.35 Hps 2.12 dps

Edited by Sug, 05 January 2013 - 10:49 AM.