10 replies to this topic

[Xelchon]

I do not know if the same suggestion was made before, I read forums only on occasion; I somehow seem to remember reading similar things in Battletech Novels.
In any case, if we could dumb-fire the machine guns onto incoming missiles, shouldn't it have a similar effect with AMS, but maybe with less effectiveness??

Edited by Xelchon, 05 January 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Xandralkus]

Speculation ahead:

The AMS is only able to shoot down missiles with any measure of efficiency because of three reasons. Firstly, it has a very high rate of fire, much faster than the machine gun, and can saturate an area with rounds very quickly. Secondly, the 'cone' in which it sprays rounds is quite narrow - it appears to be more narrow than that of the machine gun. A narrow firing cone increases the density of fire as opposed to a wide one; if there is a missile in that cone, there is a greater chance it will be hit. Thirdly, and perhaps more importantly, the AMS is a turreted weapon with its own sensors capable of targeting individual missiles, and its own fire control computer dedicated to guiding the gun.

*End speculation*

Now, while dumbfiring a machinegun into an incoming missile swarm might theoretically shoot a missile or two - your AC-20 round and an enemy's AC-20 round might also intersect in midair and destroy one another.

The best way to make the machinegun useful is to buff it to the effectiveness of the small laser in terms of DPS per ton, minus about 5-10 percentage points, make it so that it generates some measurable heat, and let it retain the slight bonus to internal structural damage.

Edited by Xandralkus, 05 January 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[Xelchon]

Xandralkus, on 05 January 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Speculation ahead:

The AMS is only able to shoot down missiles with any measure of efficiency because of three reasons. Firstly, it has a very high rate of fire, much faster than the machine gun, and can saturate an area with rounds very quickly. Secondly, the 'cone' in which it sprays rounds is quite narrow - it appears to be more narrow than that of the machine gun. A narrow firing cone increases the density of fire as opposed to a wide one; if there is a missile in that cone, there is a greater chance it will be hit. Thirdly, and perhaps more importantly, the AMS is a turreted weapon with its own sensors capable of targeting individual missiles, and its own fire control computer dedicated to guiding the gun.

*End speculation*

Now, while dumbfiring a machinegun into an incoming missile swarm might theoretically shoot a missile or two - your AC-20 round and an enemy's AC-20 round might also intersect in midair and destroy one another.

The best way to make the machinegun useful is to buff it to the effectiveness of the small laser in terms of DPS per ton, minus about 5-10 percentage points, make it so that it generates some measurable heat, and let it retain the slight bonus to internal structural damage.

Well m8 that is a very straightforward tweak but think about it. If we are looking from a realistic standpoint, we are talking about a small lead bullet trying damage ten tons of solid metal. If you ask me; a machine gun shouldnt be doing any damage to mechs over 40 tons. Increasing its damage should be out of the picture imo.
Yes as you said, dumb-firing them has only a small chance of hitting a missile, that is why I said it should be less effective than AMS. Maybe VERY less. Yet if you had a pair of MG's during combat and had a missile swarm coming to you, I'd say you'd take your chance firing those.
I would.

Edited by Xelchon, 05 January 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Xelchon, on 05 January 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

.....

your "speculation" is completely right i´d say, but your "solution" may not happen...see below...

Xandralkus, on 05 January 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

...

this has been argued to death during CBT... as far as it looks, PGI won´t really buff the damage for the MG, and because you are right is one reason^^

it is a weapon against soft targets (infantry and light vehicles) and i think PGI wants to keep this.. BUT Paul already said, that they probably buff the INTERNAL damage on un-armored parts...drastcally...i love this idea, because it makes sense somehow^^... riping apart the internals with fast firing small bullets makes them a real threat, without making them weapons that they aren´t ^^

only thing that will probably enhance the damage of MG´s will be the MG-Array (bundled Machineguns), which is to come somewhere after the Clan Invasion...IIRC, MG Arrays deal about small laser damage with less heat bt slightly more weight and a few slots? can´t remember, i rarely played that timeline^^

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 05 January 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Xelchon]

Adrienne Vorton, on 05 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

your "speculation" is completely right i´d say, but your "solution" may not happen...see below...


this has been argued to death during CBT... as far as it looks, PGI won´t really buff the damage for the MG, and because you are right is one reason^^

it is a weapon against soft targets (infantry and light vehicles) and i think PGI wants to keep this.. BUT Paul already said, that they probably buff the INTERNAL damage on un-armored parts...drastcally...i love this idea, because it makes sense somehow^^... riping apart the internals with fast firing small bullets makes them a real threat, without making them weapons that they aren´t ^^

Agree on both.

[Xenithos]

Okay, well, with that in mind, the current speed of the machine gun is 10/second. The size of the AC20 is probably 1/7 of a ton because 7 rounds come in a ton. Compared to the machine gun where the ammo is 100/ton so it is 1/100 of a ton. The machine gun also fires faster than the AC20. What im saying is, if you do the math, it's completely unproportioned.

Look
One AC20 manages to do 20 damage around a small hitbox target area. Even though its one seventh of a ton fired at a speed of 900 Kps. Spreadsheet here! http://mwomercs.com/...s-excel-inside/
If you do the math some more you realize that one seventh of a ton is .15of a ton roughly.
This means that theoretically, if you can get 15 shots off by a mg. It should do as much damage as the AC20. EXCEPT, It goes at a rate that is 9 times slower than the AC20. So after you get off 135 shots from the machine gun, it should do the same damage via Velocity and directional proportions. But what you didnt know about the MG is that since its firing speed is 10/second. It should only take 13.5 seconds to do what an AC20 does in 4.1 seconds.

So.. If you had 3 machine guns, all firing at the same time. (Watch this guys) you would be doing an AC20 amount of damage in 4.5 seconds. Trust, me mgs right now are not scaled to what they should be in the game.

Who wants to test my logic?




So, all in all, they HAVE nerfed the MG by a lot. When theyll fix it, i have no idea, will they, probably not.

Edited by Xenithos, 05 January 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but it seems at a glance that you've missed an important point. The netcode. If people are having trouble hitting light mechs due to netcode, how easy will it be to hit those tiny missiles?

[101011]

Xelchon, on 05 January 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

we are talking about a small lead bullet

Actually, I would think that a half-ton gun would fire something a bit larger than a modern machine gun round. I personally think it fires something more along the lines of a depleted uranium armor-piercing shell.

Edited by 101011, 05 January 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[Pinselborste]

MGs just Need a damage buff, increasing dps from 0.4 to 1.0 would make them viable. but instead of increasing the damage of each bullet only, they should increase the bullet damage just by 0.01 and double the fire rate. that way the damage per ton of ammo wont go that much up. And before you say its not Canon, this is a game and its supposed to be balanced and fun.

[stjobe]

AFAIK the devs are contemplating either a small damage buff, or a crit buff to MGs. That's not enough to make them viable, they need a *huge* buff to damage AND a crit buff. They should be buffed to three times their current damage, or 0.12 per bullet. Keep the rate of fire at 10/s, and give them a crit buff as well.


Here's why MGs won't be overpowered if buffed to three times their current damage (0.12 per round instead of 0.04):

Compare it to the small laser: The small laser does 3 damage in a 0.75s beam, and then recycles for 2.25 seconds, making its DPS 1.0. Over 10 seconds, the SL puts out 12 damage (at 0 seconds, 3 seconds, 6 seconds, and 9 seconds) for a total beam duration of 3 seconds. In other words, you only need to hold your SL on-target for 3 seconds to do those 12 damage.

Now the MG: The MG is a continuous-fire weapon, dealing damage without a cooldown. Putting the MG at 0.12 damage per round would make it do 12 damage over 10 seconds, exactly as much as the small laser - with this very important caveat: You need to hold your MG on-target for the full 10 seconds to do that damage. If you only manage to hold it for 3 seconds like with the SL, you'll only do 3.6 damage.

So let's look at boating the things:
4 x SL: 2 tons, 8 heat, 4 DPS, or 12 damage per 0.75 seconds on-target.
4 x (buffed) MG: 3 tons, 0 heat, 4,8 DPS, but only 3.6 damage per 0.75 seconds on-target.

In short, the continuous-fire nature of the MG allows it to have substantially higher DPS without being overpowered, since there won't be many situations where you'll get to fire at an enemy undisturbed for prolonged periods of time. And even if you do, it's no worse than being hit by a small laser; damaging, but not overpoweredly so.

I think the minimal buff to the MG should be to triple their damage; if they want to give them a crit-buff as well that's fine, but not buffing their damage and only going with a crit-buff won't make the MG a viable weapon.

So why isn't a crit buff sufficient? Here's why:

Let's make the buff a big one; let's make MGs crit 100% of the time, and always do three hits on a crit (that's normally a 3% chance).

It would *still* take 10 / (0.04 * 3 * 10) = 8.3 seconds of continuously firing and hitting the same location to destroy a single component!

That's not a buff in anything other than name, now is it?

[Gremlich Johns]

Machine-gun arrays.

four heavy caliber machineguns, 0-900m range, 1 slot, 1 ton minimum, 1 ton ammo (that is an AWFUL lot of bullets in one ton). Kinda like the ASU-23-4

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 05 January 2013 - 04:40 PM.