37 replies to this topic

[Valkyrie Brynhildr]

I remember back in Mechwarrior 3 that I would do something like fit 2 Gauss Rifles to a mech (Annihilator maybe) and then just do a march of death towards enemies and kill them.

I believe many times, I was able to knock down some of the Light mechs just by the sheer force of the dual gauss rifles. What if that was implemented? A strong enough hit to a Light Mech from a ballistic weapon in this game would send them toppling over and then 20 seconds of immunity for being knocked down by weapons.

[Roland]

I expect that this will be implemented eventually.

[TruePoindexter]

Valkyrie Brynhildr, on 07 January 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I remember back in Mechwarrior 3 that I would do something like fit 2 Gauss Rifles to a mech (Annihilator maybe) and then just do a march of death towards enemies and kill them.

I believe many times, I was able to knock down some of the Light mechs just by the sheer force of the dual gauss rifles. What if that was implemented? A strong enough hit to a Light Mech from a ballistic weapon in this game would send them toppling over and then 20 seconds of immunity for being knocked down by weapons.

I'm not a fan of this honeslty. Having been there in league play for MW3 we used to run Thor/Avatar mechs with dual UAC20's. First shot would knock someone over - second would kill them. It was not what I would call a great mechanic.

If implemented it would need to be done with great care.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 07 January 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

I definitely think that hitting a light with an AC20 should have a chance to knock them down.

Lore wise though, in the books, the knock down doesn't only come with the impact, but with the sudden imbalance of losing tons of armor. So it should also take into effect the amount of damage taken in a given time period (2 seconds?).

[Valkyrie Brynhildr]

cdlord, on 07 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I definitely think that hitting a light with an AC20 should have a chance to knock them down.

Lore wise though, in the books, the knock down doesn't only come with the impact, but with the sudden imbalance of losing tons of armor. So it should also take into effect the amount of damage taken in a given time period (2 seconds?).

I'd would see that since an AC 20 fired into a small mech should blast part of it out the back.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

I put in a simple Balance System during initial development.

It is a vector that faces up and gets pushed around by the direction and force applied to it when getting hit.
It slowly returns to its starting vector over time.

Once it reaches a threshold, the mech would ragdoll.

With mech VS mech ragdolling out the game right now the system is sitting idle.

Possible/Probable future uses:
-Mech VS Mech collision (when we put it back in)
-Mech VS Weapon (2-3+ AC20 from the same general direction could ragdoll a Jenner etc)
-Mech VS Terrain (if a mech is standing at an edge it could eventually lose its footing and tumble down the hill or stuff like rough terrain at high speed could cause it to tumble)


No design yet to put it back in at this time. Mech VS Mech Coming back in soon, but no date set.

[Roland]

Sneak it into a patch tomorrow! We won't tell anyone that you did it.

[CypherHalo]

Eh, I was not a fan of collision/knockdown when they had it in the game. It just made piloting a light annoying because if you turned a corner and some Assault was standing there, boom, over you go. Or if one of your buddies in an assault backed up while you were trying to get around, bam, down you go. Then you took forever to get back up.

You also had situations where someone (usually a Jenner) would purposefully ram you so his teammates could shoot you up. You'd both get back up, he'd do it again. All in all, it was just not a fun mechanic regardless of the fact that it was also buggy and your mech would teleport around on the ground.

I never played MW3 online but played through the whole campaign. I don't think it's a good example for PGI to follow. I remember in MW3 you could shoot of a mech's leg to get it as salvage because it would topple over useless. I preferred MW4's system of just disabling your leg and also preferred the customization in MW4, which gave you some limits but also left enough freedom to allow you to make interesting builds. Personally, I wouldn't mind if PGI mimicked MW4's mechlab a bit more and limited you not just by hardpoints but slot sizes. This would keep builds like the "Gausscat" out, really it's not a "fair" build by either the standards of lore or the standards of playing the game. Something as big as Gauss rifles should need to be mounted on your arms, where they are more vulnerable.

[EyeOne]

"Gyro Overload" - MW3 B*tchin' Betty

[Valkyrie Brynhildr]

Ohhh. Very nice. I can't wait to see something like that.

[Stradius]

Weapon knockdown should be a flat out no.

Instead, knockdown via speedy lights running into heavy mech or vice versa, should trip them like it did before. Another possibility for this weapon idea though, is that higher impact weapons could temporarily decrease some speed if it hits the front of the mech. I don't think that would be that overpowered compared to lolknockdowns.

[CDLord HHGD]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 07 January 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I put in a simple Balance System during initial development.

It is a vector that faces up and gets pushed around by the direction and force applied to it when getting hit.
It slowly returns to its starting vector over time.

Once it reaches a threshold, the mech would ragdoll.

With mech VS mech ragdolling out the game right now the system is sitting idle.

Possible/Probable future uses:
-Mech VS Mech collision (when we put it back in)
-Mech VS Weapon (2-3+ AC20 from the same general direction could ragdoll a Jenner etc)
-Mech VS Terrain (if a mech is standing at an edge it could eventually lose its footing and tumble down the hill or stuff like rough terrain at high speed could cause it to tumble)


No design yet to put it back in at this time. Mech VS Mech Coming back in soon, but no date set.

Awesome response, thanks for the insight. I hope it makes it back into the game soon as clothes-lining the fast little buggars may be our only good defense to ECM for a while.

[Valkyrie Brynhildr]

CypherHalo, on 07 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Eh, I was not a fan of collision/knockdown when they had it in the game. It just made piloting a light annoying because if you turned a corner and some Assault was standing there, boom, over you go. Or if one of your buddies in an assault backed up while you were trying to get around, bam, down you go. Then you took forever to get back up.

You also had situations where someone (usually a Jenner) would purposefully ram you so his teammates could shoot you up. You'd both get back up, he'd do it again. All in all, it was just not a fun mechanic regardless of the fact that it was also buggy and your mech would teleport around on the ground.

I never played MW3 online but played through the whole campaign. I don't think it's a good example for PGI to follow. I remember in MW3 you could shoot of a mech's leg to get it as salvage because it would topple over useless. I preferred MW4's system of just disabling your leg and also preferred the customization in MW4, which gave you some limits but also left enough freedom to allow you to make interesting builds. Personally, I wouldn't mind if PGI mimicked MW4's mechlab a bit more and limited you not just by hardpoints but slot sizes. This would keep builds like the "Gausscat" out, really it's not a "fair" build by either the standards of lore or the standards of playing the game. Something as big as Gauss rifles should need to be mounted on your arms, where they are more vulnerable.

This topic isn't about legging or ramming mechs. This was more about using ballistic weapons to knock lighter mechs over at a range.

[Ilvatu]

Valkyrie Brynhildr, on 07 January 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I remember back in Mechwarrior 3 that I would do something like fit 2 Gauss Rifles to a mech (Annihilator maybe) and then just do a march of death towards enemies and kill them.

I believe many times, I was able to knock down some of the Light mechs just by the sheer force of the dual gauss rifles. What if that was implemented? A strong enough hit to a Light Mech from a ballistic weapon in this game would send them toppling over and then 20 seconds of immunity for being knocked down by weapons.

It is, when some lighter mechs die. The thing is, there is no way to balance this properly. Knocking someone down for 20 seconds? 5 seconds is too long, 10 seconds would be an eternity, 20 seconds would be an eon. Why not just have it kill them? In that case, why have it do either? Nothing in this game should mean instant death for anyone. Unless you run around in a mech with no armor. Then you deserve to die instantly every game.

[Roland]

Quote

Eh, I was not a fan of collision/knockdown when they had it in the game. It just made piloting a light annoying because if you turned a corner and some Assault was standing there, boom, over you go. Or if one of your buddies in an assault backed up while you were trying to get around, bam, down you go. Then you took forever to get back up.

Err... yes. This is why it required some modicum of skill to drive light mechs in the past. You had to actually avoid ramming into everything.

And yet, there were lots of folks who effectively ran light mechs. I ran a commando all the time back then, because tooling around at high speed meant you had to actually pilot your mech..you couldn't just gun the throttle and let the lag protect you. If you rammed into a mech in the situations you described, you died.

And really, that's how it should be.

Oh man, you turned a blind corner and rammed into another mech? That's a good reason not to tool around blind corners at full speed.

[CypherHalo]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 07 January 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I put in a simple Balance System during initial development.

It is a vector that faces up and gets pushed around by the direction and force applied to it when getting hit.
It slowly returns to its starting vector over time.

Once it reaches a threshold, the mech would ragdoll.

With mech VS mech ragdolling out the game right now the system is sitting idle.

Possible/Probable future uses:
-Mech VS Mech collision (when we put it back in)
-Mech VS Weapon (2-3+ AC20 from the same general direction could ragdoll a Jenner etc)
-Mech VS Terrain (if a mech is standing at an edge it could eventually lose its footing and tumble down the hill or stuff like rough terrain at high speed could cause it to tumble)


No design yet to put it back in at this time. Mech VS Mech Coming back in soon, but no date set.

Ugh, if you guys put this back in do it carefully and do it right. It was horrifically "un-fun" before and I was so happy to see it go. No other mech game has a knockdown system and it doesn't bug me in the slightest, never thought a mech game needed one, not any of the previous MW games I've played. I don't even see the "realism" aspect because I can barrel into a building at 100 kph no problem! Anyway, since y'all are bent on bringing it back in, make sure it is fun and adds something to the game, don't just throw it in to please the purists. A mechanic is pointless if it isn't enjoyable.

[Tice Daurus]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 07 January 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I put in a simple Balance System during initial development.

It is a vector that faces up and gets pushed around by the direction and force applied to it when getting hit.
It slowly returns to its starting vector over time.

Once it reaches a threshold, the mech would ragdoll.

With mech VS mech ragdolling out the game right now the system is sitting idle.

Possible/Probable future uses:
-Mech VS Mech collision (when we put it back in)
-Mech VS Weapon (2-3+ AC20 from the same general direction could ragdoll a Jenner etc)
-Mech VS Terrain (if a mech is standing at an edge it could eventually lose its footing and tumble down the hill or stuff like rough terrain at high speed could cause it to tumble)


No design yet to put it back in at this time. Mech VS Mech Coming back in soon, but no date set.

Ahem...all stuff I mentioned months ago in tickets in closed beta. Thomas, as I also mentioned, please do not forget mech vs reinforced buildings as well for collision knockdowns. Thanks!

[Roland]

CypherHalo, on 07 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Ugh, if you guys put this back in do it carefully and do it right. It was horrifically "un-fun" before and I was so happy to see it go. No other mech game has a knockdown system and it doesn't bug me in the slightest, never thought a mech game needed one, not any of the previous MW games I've played.

Previous mechwarrior titles had knockdown... Certain configs like the SSRM4 Arctic Wolf were designed specifically for knocking down mechs.

All the Armored Core games, as well as Chromehounds, had what was essentially knockdown... when you got hit by large impulse weapons, your mech would effectively stop moving.

CypherHalo, on 07 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

I don't even see the "realism" aspect because I can barrel into a building at 100 kph no problem! Anyway, since y'all are bent on bringing it back in, make sure it is fun and adds something to the game, don't just throw it in to please the purists. A mechanic is pointless if it isn't enjoyable.

Challenge is something which is enjoyable... Swerving through enemy mechs was a lot more enjoyable in the past, when you risked death by doing so.

[CypherHalo]

Roland, on 07 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Err... yes. This is why it required some modicum of skill to drive light mechs in the past. You had to actually avoid ramming into everything.

And yet, there were lots of folks who effectively ran light mechs. I ran a commando all the time back then, because tooling around at high speed meant you had to actually pilot your mech..you couldn't just gun the throttle and let the lag protect you. If you rammed into a mech in the situations you described, you died.

And really, that's how it should be.

Oh man, you turned a blind corner and rammed into another mech? That's a good reason not to tool around blind corners at full speed.

Sigh, don't make assumptions. I ran a Commando during CB as well and did pretty good for myself, it was the only stinking mech I could afford. And I can speak, that in my personal experience, knockdown was no fun and I play games to have fun. I mean, technically, pubstomping is realistic. I mean, not every battle fought in a war has been fair, there have been one-sided battles in wars. But this isn't a real war, it's a video game and pubstomping is not fun. That it is so prevalent in this game has been a huge turnoff.

So anyway, that's just my opinion, since the devs are bent on putting it back in, good luck to them. All I can say is I never enjoyed the mechanic, didn't feel it made the game more enjoyable, and I think there is still plenty of skill involved in piloting a light mech. You have to avoid being hit by everything since you have such thin armor. If I were in their shoes I'd have totally different priorities over putting collision back in.

If your problem is lag-shooting, that is something the devs should fix by fixing the lag problem, not by implementing collisions. I don't really see how collisions is a solution anyway. The only way an Atlas is going to be knocking over a Commando is if the Commando goes out of his way to run into the Atlas.

I mean, I could see a stagger mechanic. Run into something and stagger for a second or two before throttling back up. That would be annoying, but not nearly as frustrating as the whole "fall on your face and spend five seconds getting up like a drunken frat boy" mechanic they had before.

[CypherHalo]

Valkyrie Brynhildr, on 07 January 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

This topic isn't about legging or ramming mechs. This was more about using ballistic weapons to knock lighter mechs over at a range.

Aware of that but as you can see from the responses to your thread, they go together. Peace out.