1063 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

SteelJaws, on 26 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Cone of Fire should be in.

As in RL or any of the shooting games for the past...oh I don't know 20 years? The more you shoot the worse your aim is, hence the term "Spray and Pray". Doing a single shot puts it right where your crosshairs are(unless wind or other issues, but lets not go there) doing 2-3 shots puts it close to your crosshairs, and doing 10-15 shots at once spreads it around like your ******* into a stiff breeze. That is the way its ment to be.

Now then, lets talk about your mech, your telling me that a Laser in your RIGHT arm, and a laser in your LEFT torso, will hit the same exact spot? Or maybe a Laser in your HEAD, and CENTER torso?

Yeah, sure they can, if both lasers have the ability to move up in down and right and left in their own Socket. Oh wait, the weapons are in a fixed place and can only be moved by either moving your arms or torso, and none of these mechs have a neck, so nodding their head is impossible.

Unless this is Gundam Warrior Online.

How many weapons here in MWO can fire 10-15 shots in such a short time scale to make bloom relevant?

The thread is not about putting a standard FPS CoF in the game.

Now onto your rubbish second point, weapons in the arms are the ones most likely to be able to converge on a single damage panel, they are fully movable like a standard arm, point inwards and outwards.
Torso and head mounted weapons would be fixed.

This is no more Gundam Warrior online, than TableTop Warrior online.

[Deamhan]

Cone of fire? I'm not controlling a person that is holding a weapon, I'm piloting a machine that has weapons mounted onto it. The combined use of recoil buffers and gyro stabilization makes it possible to shoot quite accurately when it comes to the real deal. I expect the same or better out of machines based on superior technology.

That's not to say that all weapons should be sniper precision. A coax fired machine gun still doesn't put round after round through the exact same hole at 300m. Then again, in what universe does a .50 cal machine gun have a maximum range of 200m? Oh that's right, the BattleTech universe.. lol.

[Voodoo Circus]

People hit more than a dice roll.There is no way round that without taking the skill factor away.
If you put in a feature that takes aiming out of the game then the skill factor involved
is diminished.

TT armor values would generate people only seeking headshots in anything but lights, because you would be able to down any mech in 1 volley to the head.Even with cone of fire in small weapons e bet a lot of the playerbase can land 1 or 2 ac shots in the head of a lumbering mech consistently. Hell people can hit headshots in fast paced fps why not on a 40kph mech?

for mechs to survive more that 10 seconds in battle with normal armor we would have to have the reload time of TT, meaning 1 shot down range every 10 or so seconds...super fun isnt it?

Plus we have the penalties for shooting a moving mech. Is it -3 -4 on the roll?
Well in a fps a target moving towards or away from you are just as easy to hit as a rooted one.
Plus leading a mech going 60kph transversal to you is not that hard to do so people would still
hit a lot more often then a dice roll leading to a lot of 1 shot-kills and diminishing the time people pass having fun fighting in their mechs


which leads to the conclusion that Battletech is a great tabletop game, but you cant just port over the rules to an FPS.It would never be fun to play

Edited by Voodoo Circus, 26 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[EvilCow]

I don't want to suggest a solution, it is dev's role to do that but I agree with OP about the double armor problem (not a solution, except for head probably).

Double armor is where MW4 failed to address the pinpoint accuracy issues and, IMHO, MWLL made the same error (after 0.2.x if I remember well).

Apparently MWO is falling for the same simplistic solution instead of reasoning out of the box (like they did for a lot of other things where MWO is a departure from the MW4 style so present also in MWLL). Laser beams duration partially addressed the problem luckily, MW4 was really screwed up in that regard, projectiles drift also is a nice touch in MWO, I liked that in Tribes too.

I don't like randomness in games, skill must always be rewarded but pinpoint accuracy is a problem, it is not even realistic, real weapons are never 100% accurate.

Edited by EvilCow, 26 January 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[BerryChunks]

Im glad someone said it.

[BerryChunks]

Voodoo Circus, on 26 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

People hit more than a dice roll.There is no way round that without taking the skill factor away.
If you put in a feature that takes aiming out of the game then the skill factor involved
is diminished.

TT armor values would generate people only seeking headshots in anything but lights, because you would be able to down any mech in 1 volley to the head.Even with cone of fire in small weapons e bet a lot of the playerbase can land 1 or 2 ac shots in the head of a lumbering mech consistently. Hell people can hit headshots in fast paced fps why not on a 40kph mech?

for mechs to survive more that 10 seconds in battle with normal armor we would have to have the reload time of TT, meaning 1 shot down range every 10 or so seconds...super fun isnt it?

Plus we have the penalties for shooting a moving mech. Is it -3 -4 on the roll?
Well in a fps a target moving towards or away from you are just as easy to hit as a rooted one.
Plus leading a mech going 60kph transversal to you is not that hard to do so people would still
hit a lot more often then a dice roll leading to a lot of 1 shot-kills and diminishing the time people pass having fun fighting in their mechs


which leads to the conclusion that Battletech is a great tabletop game, but you cant just port over the rules to an FPS.It would never be fun to play

It shouldn't be. The reason they use chainguns on apaches to kill iraqi civilians is because you cant just fire a single bullet and hit perfectly on target 100% of the the time. You might be able to do it once in a while, but when you're moving, multiple shots fired are how you score hits. You CAN "port the rules to an FPS". Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. I have plenty of ways it could be done, while retaining full elements of required skill.

We also can't quantify whether 1 shot per 10 seconds is fun or not. We've never played it. You can't judge something with no data whatsoever.

Edited by BerryChunks, 26 January 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[Voodoo Circus]

BerryChunks, on 26 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

It shouldn't be. The reason they use chainguns on apaches to kill iraqi civilians is because you cant just fire a single bullet and hit perfectly on target 100% of the the time. You might be able to do it once in a while, but when you're moving, multiple shots fired are how you score hits. You CAN "port the rules to an FPS". Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. I have plenty of ways it could be done, while retaining full elements of required skill.

We also can't quantify whether 1 shot per 10 seconds is fun or not. We've never played it. You can't judge something with no data whatsoever.

so the solution is to go on and mess with 3 core balance pilars just to see if it works....

of course the DEVs tried normal armor, of course they tried 10 secs delay on each weapon before implementing the changes
I remember reading it somewhere BTW
And they got to the conclusion it wasnt fun, that it wouldnt be profitable,that it wouldnt be a great game.

They dont go around changing TT rules just to **** people off for no reason
In fact I bet they avoid with all they strengh to mess with any TT rule just so they dont have to deal with the rage

Edited by Voodoo Circus, 26 January 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Mike Townsend]

AustinNH, on 22 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Everyone's going back to COF but what about fixing convergence (so that torso weapons don't converge, or converge to a fixed distance)? It seems that would address the OP's concerns and would not involve dice.

This. If the problem is that weapons always converge to a perfect point, making eight medium lasers into a Super medium laser, it seems like the most appropriate solution is to make them not converge. Rather than making aiming random to prevent perfect convergence, just make all the weapons on any given body section (torso as a whole counts as one section for purposes of this discussion) fire parallel to each other and only have convergence horizontally, between the arms. I'd actually prefer this as it would make a laserback running a bank of smalls more effective against lagshielded lights since you'd probably always get at least a couple hits when bankfiring. Or, against heavies, where you want to hit a specific chunk of Armor, it'd make aiming skill for chainfired weapons even more important. Seems win-win.

[Kelpaz]

AC20 are no laughing matter, even when alone.

It's also possible to make an AC20 like this.



When fired at the same time they impact dealing 20 damage instantly, which often blows off arms and legs off light mechs in one hit.
But if there is one thing I really like about MWO, that is the possiblity to shoot what you are aiming at. Nothing would frustrate me more if I want to finish an Atlas at point blank range, so I alpha... suddenly my guns go haywire and shoot in all directions and i'm DED.

No I had quite enough of cones of fire in Counter-Strike, were people always have split second pixel reactions making me die instantly. MWO let's me think tactically when engaging an enemy.

[Velba]

SteelJaws, on 26 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Cone of Fire should be in.

As in RL or any of the shooting games for the past...oh I don't know 20 years? The more you shoot the worse your aim is, hence the term "Spray and Pray". Doing a single shot puts it right where your crosshairs are(unless wind or other issues, but lets not go there) doing 2-3 shots puts it close to your crosshairs, and doing 10-15 shots at once spreads it around like your ******* into a stiff breeze. That is the way its ment to be.

Now then, lets talk about your mech, your telling me that a Laser in your RIGHT arm, and a laser in your LEFT torso, will hit the same exact spot? Or maybe a Laser in your HEAD, and CENTER torso?

Yeah, sure they can, if both lasers have the ability to move up in down and right and left in their own Socket. Oh wait, the weapons are in a fixed place and can only be moved by either moving your arms or torso, and none of these mechs have a neck, so nodding their head is impossible.

Unless this is Gundam Warrior Online.

As in real life? Well let me say this. In real life I can lose a 6-10 round burst from an M240-G from 1200m and hit all rounds on target.

Spray and pray is a term for people who can't shoot.

I unload ten rounds of 5.56 at 300m in 8 seconds and hit all ten rounds in a 1 foot disk. (M16A2)
I unload 100 rounds of 5.56 in 6-8 round bursts at 1200 meters and hit my target every time. (SAW)
I unload 50 rounds of 5.56 in 3-5 rounds bursts at steel targets about 12 inches x 6 inches at ranges between 20-100 meters, and hit steel everytime. (SAW)


I just a human, you don't think a giant mech wouldn't be able to handle weapons with little or no recoil (relative)?


The solution is to enable, as someone bright here said, weapon convergence that you can set. If pilots in WWI could choose where their Vickers converged, ******** it, mechwarriors from the future better be able to figure it out.

[Ravn]

Hoorah

[BerryChunks]

Kelpaz, on 26 January 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

AC20 are no laughing matter, even when alone.

It's also possible to make an AC20 like this.



When fired at the same time they impact dealing 20 damage instantly, which often blows off arms and legs off light mechs in one hit.
But if there is one thing I really like about MWO, that is the possiblity to shoot what you are aiming at. Nothing would frustrate me more if I want to finish an Atlas at point blank range, so I alpha... suddenly my guns go haywire and shoot in all directions and i'm DED.

No I had quite enough of cones of fire in Counter-Strike, were people always have split second pixel reactions making me die instantly. MWO let's me think tactically when engaging an enemy.

so you want to be able to fire as fast as possible without needing to use any skillsets? What you just described would occur if you didn't use skill and withhold firing until convergence settled to perfect aim, at which point you can then fire and do all the damage to a single point. But that takes skills to hold the aim on a spot and to keep yourself from firing until just the right moment. Instead you sound as if firing as much as possible until you or the other person is dead is preferable. Kind of like the difference between boxing or martial arts and a street brawl. Do I have that right?

Velba, on 26 January 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

As in real life? Well let me say this. In real life I can lose a 6-10 round burst from an M240-G from 1200m and hit all rounds on target.

Spray and pray is a term for people who can't shoot.

I unload ten rounds of 5.56 at 300m in 8 seconds and hit all ten rounds in a 1 foot disk. (M16A2)
I unload 100 rounds of 5.56 in 6-8 round bursts at 1200 meters and hit my target every time. (SAW)
I unload 50 rounds of 5.56 in 3-5 rounds bursts at steel targets about 12 inches x 6 inches at ranges between 20-100 meters, and hit steel everytime. (SAW)


I just a human, you don't think a giant mech wouldn't be able to handle weapons with little or no recoil (relative)?


The solution is to enable, as someone bright here said, weapon convergence that you can set. If pilots in WWI could choose where their Vickers converged, ******** it, mechwarriors from the future better be able to figure it out.

you're talking about the difference between a pea shooter and cannons as if that is valid. I assume you're hitting like that from the prone position.

[Velba]

BerryChunks, on 26 January 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

you're talking about the difference between a pea shooter and cannons as if that is valid. I assume you're hitting like that from the prone position.

You ever hear of a M1A1 Abrams?

Are you aware of the capability of the weapon systems?

[Redacted] If a modern tank moving at top speed can hit a target while it moves across deferential terrain, at range why cant a future robot?

Not even to mention a 5.56 or 7.62's recoil on my body that weighs 200 pounds ( with gear on ) is most definitely comparable to a 50 ton mech shooting what ever it has.

And other than me shooting like that and hitting while in the standing/sitting in the M16A2's case, I was in the prone, but what does my shooting position have anything to do with anything?

Edited by Niko Snow, 26 January 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[BerryChunks]

Velba, on 26 January 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

You ever hear of a M1A1 Abrams?

Are you aware of the capability of the weapon systems?

Clearly not, because if you were you'd keep your mouth shut. If a modern tank moving at top speed can hit a target while it moves across deferential terrain, at range why cant a future robot?

Not even to mention a 5.56 or 7.62's recoil on my body that weighs 200 pounds ( with gear on ) is most definitely comparable to a 50 ton mech shooting what ever it has.

And other than me shooting like that and hitting while in the standing/sitting in the M16A2's case, I was in the prone, but what does my shooting position have anything to do with anything?

Stability. Something the army field manual is very clear about. And yes Im aware of the abrams. Those shots aren't being taken willy-nilly. They are calculated before firing every time. You seem pretty threatened by this discussion. Why is that?

Edited by BerryChunks, 26 January 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Velba]

BerryChunks, on 26 January 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Stability. And yes Im aware of the abrams. Those shots aren't being taken willy-nilly. They are calculated before firing every time.

Calculated by the computer on board [Redacted[. Instantly as far as our minds can tell.

Stability? You don't think these giant damn mechs have stability? You honestly think a 50 ton mech can't handle the recoil of cannon as small as the ones in the game? [Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 26 January 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[Zerethon]

Velba, on 26 January 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

The solution is to enable, as someone bright here said, weapon convergence that you can set. If pilots in WWI could choose where their Vickers converged, ******** it, mechwarriors from the future better be able to figure it out.

That was me. It's seriously the most sensical option.

1. Make all weapons fire in a straight line from where they originate (So all 6 shoulder lasers on the 4P fire above and to the right of the crosshair in the same pattern at the same size as the shoulder cannon, like the 6 dots on a dice.)

2. Make fixed weapons then converge at a point the player picks (With a slider or something) that makes the crosshair the center of shots fire at that range (Obviously with a limit on the max, no 1M converging 90degree angled shots.)

3. Then make automatic convergence only work on fully actuated arms, and only when a mech is held under the reticule

This is the most obvious and overall, best long-term solution, especially when paired with reworks of "Problem" mechs (EG: moving the K2 ballistics to the CT, maybe adding a cat with arm ballistics as a variant/hero to stop whining.)

Problems solved. "Crisis" averted.

Edited by Zerethon, 26 January 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Velba]

Zerethon, on 26 January 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

That was me. It's seriously the most sensical option.

1. Make all weapons fire in a straight line from where they originate (So all 6 shoulder lasers on the 4P fire above and to the right of the crosshair in the same pattern at the same size as the shoulder cannon, like the 6 dots on a dice.)

2. Make fixed weapons then converge at a point the player picks (With a slider or something) that makes the crosshair the center of shots fire at that range

3. Then make automatic convergence only work on fully actuated arms, and only when a mech is held under the reticule

This is the most obvious and overall, best long-term solution, especially when paired with reworks of "Problem" mechs (EG: moving the K2 ballistics to the CT, maybe adding a cat with arm ballistics as a variant/hero to stop whining.)

Problems solved. "Crisis" averted.

I love you, someone with sense in their head.

Also it would lead to some funny laser patterns when someone misses !!

[BerryChunks]

Velba, on 26 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Calculated by the computer on board you dunce. Instantly as far as our minds can tell.

Stability? You don't think these giant damn mechs have stability? You honestly think a 50 ton mech can't handle the recoil of cannon as small as the ones in the game? You keep avoiding my points because your wrong, your ignorant, and you don't want to address your own ignorant non-sense your spouting.

http://www.globalsec...3-22-68/c03.htm

[Velba]

BerryChunks, on 26 January 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

http://www.globalsec...3-22-68/c03.htm

I never shot the bravo there Google warrior.
[Redacted]
M240G




Marines with a tripod-mounted M240G.
The M240G allows for commonality throughout the Marine Corps whether the weapon is used in an infantry, vehicular, or airborne role. The M240G is the ground version of the original M240 or M240E1, 7.62 mm medium class weapon designed as a coaxial/pintle mounted machine gun for tanks and LAVs. The M240G can be modified for ground use by the installation of an "infantry modification kit" (a flash suppressor, front sight, carrying handle for the barrel, a buttstock, infantry length pistol grip, bipod, and rear sight assembly). The M240G lacks a front heat guard, and as such is a few pounds lighter than the M240B, weighing in at 25.6 lb. The M240G has three gas settings, allowing this weapon to fire between 650 and 950 rounds per minute. On gas setting one the weapon will fire 650–750 rounds per minute, on gas setting two the weapon will fire 750–850 rounds per minute, and on gas setting three the weapon will fire 850–950 rounds per minute.

Edited by Niko Snow, 26 January 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[BerryChunks]

and look at the stabilizer. a tripod covered with 3 Sandbags for weight. I only gave you a reference page, but I'm sure someone of your intelligence can discover the manual's sections covering stability and firing rates for accuracy. I'm not sure what makes you so angry, or why you keep changing the goalposts of your argument when someone provides written military doctrine. You said you didn't see the point in why you were standing or prone, and I gave you an example, and cited a reference, and that just seems to make you angry. why is that?

The weapons you used can be found in the same manual, and you can examine those pages, if you like. The link is little more than to provide you with a place to look for the information that's clearly visible to everyone regarding stability factors for weapons and accuracy.

Edited by BerryChunks, 26 January 2013 - 01:57 PM.