86 replies to this topic

[BerryChunks]

Some people say medium mechs have no place in MWO. I find this logic more and more understandable.

Is anyone else tired of playing a "stock" or "low speed" (100-110) light and getting massacred by some heavy mech with a maxed out engine that can turn on a dime?

Speed is nothing in such an environment, and only the lagshield keeps lights alive. We shouldn't blame people for going 150 kph to avoid dying. It's the only thing that actually keeps them alive compared to the catapult with the ac/20s that can turn around in less than a second.

Basically, heavy mechs can completely replace medium mechs just by having a large engine. They will perform superior at "fly swatting", due to buffed turn and twist rates, and once they do turn around, they have superior firepower to mediums anyway.

It would be a fallacy, and a terrible game design, to say that medium mechs should have some special turn and twist speed better than other "classes". Instead, how fast a mech turns should be based on it's weight class, irrespective of engine, and all mechs should have an equal speed torso twist.

Edited by BerryChunks, 15 January 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Why? This makes the choice of engine more than just about max speed.

[Lynette Steffeld]

Engine speed always was tied to turnspeed, though? Something to do with how "nimble" the engine supposedly becomes as the numbers rise.

Although... I'm a ballistics person, so I rarely kill lights unless they make mistakes...

Or are stupid.

YOLO

[Kell Draygo]

Bad light pilots will die like flies, good ones won't because they won't be stupid enough to run into a pack of 5 other heavy mechs thinking that they are invulnerable. ECM would not be as bad as it seems and you will see a clear cut of who is a good light pilot and who isn't. Back when collision was still in the game, you can tell the good lights versus the bad lights as it was actually somewhat difficult to maneuver between large mechs to avoid getting squashed while engaging them.

[Tasorin]

I see you decided to double up your [REDACTED] post count for the day...

Three Mediums under the current build beg to differ with you when it comes to competitive deck loadouts for the only Competitive Tournament in MWO. Now when you get 6 out of 8 as Heavy and Assault in pick up drops, you have to learn to pick and choose your spots and bob and weave more.

1) Centurion 9A
2) Hunchback 4SP
3) Cicada 3M

All three of these get major play time in drop decks where mediums are used. I personally pilot the CN-9A in 4 mans when out tonned and proceed to lay doodie all over people. [REDACTED]

Edited by Helmer, 16 January 2013 - 10:24 AM.
Edited for content.

[BerryChunks]

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Why? This makes the choice of engine more than just about max speed.

Exactly. It provides More bonuses than before, making the game "speed Brawler Online".

You're a founder. put on the smallest engine possible in an atlas, and count how long it take you to do a full 360 degree rotation. Then count how long it takes to torso twist.

Next, put the biggest engine in and repeat the test.

Do you see the issue now?

Smaller engines are heavily penalizing. larger Engines are huge enhancements. They broke the gameplay of engines by doing this, and it's forcing people to play "as fast and heavy an engine as possible", ruining mech design customization, while at the same time forcing counters to it like "lagshield lights", ECMs (just because theyre so broken), and so on.

Would you say a person who doesn't pick a big enough engine to "torso roll" damage away easily, or spin around so his back can never be exposed to a light/can easily bring guns to bear on the light and blast them away, is a fool? Don't you see the pigeon-holing behavior of such a system, and the damage it causes to balance?

Lynette Steffeld, on 15 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Engine speed always was tied to turnspeed, though? Something to do with how "nimble" the engine supposedly becomes as the numbers rise.

Although... I'm a ballistics person, so I rarely kill lights unless they make mistakes...

Or are stupid.

YOLO

no. Thats was a PGI implementation.

[Jager Wolf]

Light mechs are supposed to primarily be used to scout and fight other light mechs, maybe even the odd medium. They were never supposed to be used as front line fighters and assualt mech killers. The fact that the poor netcode allowed this has lulled people into a false sense of security. If the netcode gets fixed lights will hopefully be placed securely back inot the role for which they were intended.

I suppose the real question is what insanity has allowed every light pilot from the lowest to highest skill levels the ability to go head to head with a dual ac-20 catapult and expect to live?

Disclaimer: I have never and will never pilot and AC-20 catapult.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

I'm doing just fine in my medium, thank you very much.

[BerryChunks]

Jager Wolf, on 15 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Light mechs are supposed to primarily be used to scout and fight other light mechs, maybe even the odd medium. They were never supposed to be used as front line fighters and assualt mech killers. The fact that the poor netcode allowed this has lulled people into a false sense of security. If the netcode gets fixed lights will hopefully be placed securely back inot the role for which they were intended.

I suppose the real question is what insanity has allowed every light pilot from the lowest to highest skill levels the ability to go head to head with a dual ac-20 catapult and expect to live?

Disclaimer: I have never and will never pilot and AC-20 catapult.

that's not true. They're meant to provide Striker or Fire Support if possible and safe to do so. A single heavy that can take out swarms of lights is not an appropriate behavior.

The commando 2D has mass SRM power to perform the role of shooting up a bunch of things.

I'm not a light raven 150 kph ECM streak spammer, btw. I don't soup up my engines to be lagshielded.

This is my point. The pigeon-holing turns the game into Speed Brawler online, because the advantages of larger and larger engines are so good, while the disadvantages of smaller and smaller engines are so terrible.

You guys should test it all for yourself.

Edited by BerryChunks, 15 January 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

just the bad lights will die like flies Sir. The good ones will still Pown us assaults!

[Lynette Steffeld]

BerryChunks, on 15 January 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

no. Thats was a PGI implementation.

Didn't play TT, so I wouldn't know.

When I first joined the game I accepted that as truth because that's how things work... I don't see AC20 catapults often, though. The one time I DID see one I shot it to bits, so maybe I'm not feeling the problem here.

... Maybe because I'm not a lightmech idk. Still annoying to see AC20 cats though.

[BerryChunks]

Lynette Steffeld, on 15 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Didn't play TT, so I wouldn't know.

When I first joined the game I accepted that as truth because that's how things work... I don't see AC20 catapults often, though. The one time I DID see one I shot it to bits, so maybe I'm not feeling the problem here.

... Maybe because I'm not a lightmech idk. Still annoying to see AC20 cats though.

you mean, didnt play Battletech:TT or Battletech:Mechwarrior, or Battletech:Mechwarrior 2, Or Battletech:Mechwarrior 3, etc.

PGI changed the rules of turn and twist from all previous incarnations of Battletech, even the "tabletop" version.

[BerryChunks]

Lynette Steffeld, on 15 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Didn't play TT, so I wouldn't know.

When I first joined the game I accepted that as truth because that's how things work... I don't see AC20 catapults often, though. The one time I DID see one I shot it to bits, so maybe I'm not feeling the problem here.

... Maybe because I'm not a lightmech idk. Still annoying to see AC20 cats though.

Well, like I said, try it for yourself. I found out how much bull it was when I shot an Awesome-9M in the back and he turned on me in less than a real time second. Seriously. Max engine, probably all the elite skills, and he turned so fast that he could just spin and shoot as if he was a light mech playing "the twitch game" that we ascribe to light mech play.

Conversely, a 32 KPH mech like an Annihilator would actually GET annihilated, because you turn so slow that you can't even fight in close range vs normal speed assaults, let alone heavies and lights with huge engines.

I tested the game behavior, so I do know what Im talking about.

[Lynette Steffeld]

I played MW2 and MW3. Also 4.

It's been a long time, though, so I don't really remember.

Probably why, but then again I never cared much for these things, so I guess I'm not really in a very informed position to say anything other than what I feel about the issue (didn't even realize it was a thing actually).

If netcode and collision does get fixed, though, won't lights die more from things like dragonbowling?

Just a thought.

[Flapdrol]

Yup, a fix to netcode will mean lights will get absolutely destroyed by assault mechs with large lasers.

But since it's serverside hitreg the netcode will probably never register 100% of the damage of a laser, there's massive room for improvement though but I dont think this will be a problem anytime soon.

[Jager Wolf]

BerryChunks, on 15 January 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

that's not true. They're meant to provide Striker or Fire Support if possible and safe to do so. A single heavy that can take out swarms of lights is not an appropriate behavior.

I respectfully disagree. The lights simply don't have the armor to survive a stand up fight against a mech that outweighs them by a huge margin without lagshield. You don't send 3-4 humvee's against an abrams tank.

Use the right tool for the right job. Problem right now is that the tool is broken and people have developed themselves based on this mechanic that allows them to far exceed their intended capabilities.

[Vassago Rain]

BerryChunks, on 15 January 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Exactly. It provides More bonuses than before, making the game "speed Brawler Online".

You're a founder. put on the smallest engine possible in an atlas, and count how long it take you to do a full 360 degree rotation. Then count how long it takes to torso twist.

Next, put the biggest engine in and repeat the test.

Do you see the issue now?

Smaller engines are heavily penalizing. larger Engines are huge enhancements. They broke the gameplay of engines by doing this, and it's forcing people to play "as fast and heavy an engine as possible", ruining mech design customization, while at the same time forcing counters to it like "lagshield lights", ECMs (just because theyre so broken), and so on.

Would you say a person who doesn't pick a big enough engine to "torso roll" damage away easily, or spin around so his back can never be exposed to a light/can easily bring guns to bear on the light and blast them away, is a fool? Don't you see the pigeon-holing behavior of such a system, and the damage it causes to balance?



no. Thats was a PGI implementation.

I already played MW3, where I always took the smallest engine for everything, unless I really wanted to go fast.

[Budor]

My 4SP that goes 89.x twists faster than my Flame that goes 89.x (no evidence/testing but feels like it). Hunch has a 250, Dragon has a 300.

Also: Since when do double ac20 pults have "big" engines?

[Lynette Steffeld]

If the humvee stops for just 1 second I can about half-kill it.

If it stops for any longer than that it's as good as dead - I only have issues hitting them (Even with leading) when they're moving.

I guess they'll only explode more once netcode is fixed, due to collisions and such?

I can empathize with OP's "this turning speed is stupid" argument, but if the mech is severely weighed down by its engine it's probably not carrying that big of a loadout..?

But then again I don't meet awesomes that often so I'm not sure. Meeting an awesome is like winning mini-sweepstakes or something...

[BerryChunks]

Jager Wolf, on 15 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

I respectfully disagree. The lights simply don't have the armor to survive a stand up fight against a mech that outweighs them by a huge margin without lagshield. You don't send 3-4 humvee's against an abrams tank.

Use the right tool for the right job. Problem right now is that the tool is broken and people have developed themselves based on this mechanic that allows them to far exceed their intended capabilities.

Jager Wolf, on 15 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

I respectfully disagree. The lights simply don't have the armor to survive a stand up fight against a mech that outweighs them by a huge margin without lagshield. You don't send 3-4 humvee's against an abrams tank.

Use the right tool for the right job. Problem right now is that the tool is broken and people have developed themselves based on this mechanic that allows them to far exceed their intended capabilities.

Jager Wolf, on 15 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

I respectfully disagree. The lights simply don't have the armor to survive a stand up fight against a mech that outweighs them by a huge margin without lagshield. You don't send 3-4 humvee's against an abrams tank.

Use the right tool for the right job. Problem right now is that the tool is broken and people have developed themselves based on this mechanic that allows them to far exceed their intended capabilities.

you're not supposed to get shot. you're supposed to shoot them in the back and then get away and use terrain as armor before they can return fire. That currently doesn't happen, thanks to the PGI imp of Engine > twist.

Vassago Rain, on 15 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I already played MW3, where I always took the smallest engine for everything, unless I really wanted to go fast.

no you didn't. I played Competitive MW3 for a long time. Speed Boats existed there too, but on the torso twist issue, eevryone was equals. heavies weren't punished for slower speed by twist and turn, nor were buffed hugely by higher speed.

The less of a factor you make something, the room for customization there is.

Edited by BerryChunks, 15 January 2013 - 07:46 AM.