442 replies to this topic

[AlexWildeagle]

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

Good thing about ECM is that, while it is way too powerful for its size and weight (magical AoE null sig for free)... it prevents the game devolving back into INCOMING MISSILE Online. LRM boats with their alpha damage in hundreds, as well as the raidboss (6ssrm2 A1) are still in the game, unchanged from the time they were utterly dominating the metagame. ECM keeps them in check by making people less likely to carry those configs.

Raven has its own bucketload of issues (lagshield and wonky hitboxes), which makes the chicken half-invincible with streaks out of the equation... and the existence of ECM as a whole makes it mandatory, and ECM-less mechs inferior. This isn't good.

The problem is, with ECM nerfed, guided missiles would also have to be completely rebalanced, or we're all back in the space trenches again. Spamming M1 for 1000 damage is way too good times to come back.

Could not agree more. Would much rather deal with lagshielded ravens then go back to missiles "R" us. PGI has completely screwed up missiles.

[MonkeyCheese]

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

Good thing about ECM is that, while it is way too powerful for its size and weight (magical AoE null sig for free)... it prevents the game devolving back into INCOMING MISSILE Online. LRM boats with their alpha damage in hundreds, as well as the raidboss (6ssrm2 A1) are still in the game, unchanged from the time they were utterly dominating the metagame. ECM keeps them in check by making people less likely to carry those configs.

Raven has its own bucketload of issues (lagshield and wonky hitboxes), which makes the chicken half-invincible with streaks out of the equation... and the existence of ECM as a whole makes it mandatory, and ECM-less mechs inferior. This isn't good.

The problem is, with ECM nerfed, guided missiles would also have to be completely rebalanced, or we're all back in the space trenches again. Spamming M1 for 1000 damage is way too good times to come back.

Are you nuts? I I would gladly go back to the days of lrm/ssrm cat online, it was much more enjoyable instead of this crap we have now. My favs my founders jenner/1b commando/ 90kph ERPPC 4x raven had a much better time back then, its called learn to avoid lrms and stay the hell away from streak boats. Not god mode ecm.

[machinech]

Bad Brad Keselowski, on 10 January 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

When I have 3 or more ECM-Ravens spawning in my team in PUG-games, I try to shoot them in the leg and if not possible anywhere where I can hit them with my AC/20. I have absolutely no problem with that, since they are destroying other ppl's gaming experience with deliberate intention.

Thanks for letting us know, in general, that you are one of those special few that can find some reason to rationalize team killing.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

I encountered this uber cheese team playing conquest tonight: 3 ravens in identical skeleton/phranken paint patterns with I think a cicada for backup. I screen shotted their names on the score screen too if anyone's interested to see who's running the smelliest cheese in town. All founders I believe, which is pretty sad. The fact they all painted their mechs the same colour shows they are anything but casual about their trolling of this game.

Tolkien, on 10 January 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

I completely agree with you - ECM is a clumsy bandaid to LRMs and SSRMs, and worst of all it hasn't fixed them, it's just made the team with ECM superiority have exclusive access to them.... ugh.

This is key folks. The root cause of the problem is how broken streak missiles still are to this day. Homing bullets in a reflex based shooter? Give me a break from the cheese. The biggest consequence of ECM is it allows those carrying it, and their team mates, to use and abuse streaks while others cannot. If you don't believe me, stop and think what gives the 3L most of its killing power. Streaks.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 10 January 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[twibs]

StUffz, on 10 January 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

last point I disagree with the first part. As long as you dont rush with the complete group into the enemy, you can still see and guess who your enemy is. Along with voice com coordination you should move your mech so far that you are in a better aiming position

Seems like you misunderstood my last point. What I meant that when a light runs past the corner and you don't have target info, you have no way of knowing whether it would be better to aim for shoulder or legs, since you cannot see the armor colors.

Top that with the lags shield and even if you do hit it, you cannot be sure the part you aimed at took the damage.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I had the lucky streak of moving through about 6 games last night with 4-man ECM lances. One imparticular with Ordorf2000 or whatever had Raven's out the wazoo.

GOD I felt like a monster. I've never felt so overpowered in my Centurion. I was switching between my LRM boat and my SRM boat varients. With so much ECM, I could either wade in and blow people up, or they would have their one ECM countered and I'd rain down the hate.

Then I realized it had nothing to do with me. It was all ECM.

[Inertiaman]

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

Good thing about ECM is that, while it is way too powerful for its size and weight (magical AoE null sig for free)... it prevents the game devolving back into INCOMING MISSILE Online.

I might be jumping to silly conclusions here but isn't ANTI MISSILE SYSTEM supposed to do that? In MWLL lams can take out about half an LRM20 salvo. If you have two it takes out the whole salvo so fire support have to coordinate larger waves.

[Mordin Ashe]

I remember grouping with three other folks, almost a month ago. I didn't know them before. We played some 15 matches together, all victories. I knew they were in light mechs, but didn't pay much attention because I was driving my Atlas. We were stomping everyone. PUGs, groups, once we even humiliated a sync drop of two groups of four. And how did it happen? 2x Raven 3L, one Commando 2D and me in D-DC. Been whining about ECM since then.
The thing is, lights are rather balanced, high risk and high reward mechs. But once you add an aura of torment to this, you have unbeatable machines.
I must agree with guys above, I've never felt so strong in my Atlas than when I played with these guys. Wasn't me, though. It was the three ECM light mechs.

[John MatriX82]

ECM should be rebalanced by affecting solely the bearer (nearby allies aren't covered by his ECM) and making him un-trackable for lock-ons unless under 150m range, where it enters a range of "passive" detection that ECM can't fool anymore because you have thermal and visual confirmation of the target, so you can lock on streaks or if you target him allies can see him as well.

Bring in a BAP and the ECM bearer is targettable from 250m to 0. Add a sensor range module and you can detect ECM'd targets starting from 300m, or 200 whenever you don't bring in the BAP. Tag allows to expose ECM runners from 750 to 0 m, without being dependant from either bap or modules.

ECM is still effective at nullifying ARTEMIS IV, tag LRM concentration effects and it generally slows down missile lock.


In few words ECM should be restrained as a radar shield that allows sneaking or flanking maneuvers easier and a more efficient alternative to AMS in order to avoid LRMs; but whenever you're within 150m from any enemy mech, you are a normal target for everybody (so LRMs and streaks can lock on). If an ECM bearer runs into a BAP player then he ends up exposed up to 250m from the bap source up to 300 wether if that players uses also the targeting module.

Of course screw counter and distrupt modes for ECM by doing the above, since it would only become an individual item.

Then SSRMS should be nerfed furthermore, starting by adding a chance that they can miss the target and by slowing the recycle time to lower DPSs from boaters.


ECM would still be useful for D-DC, 3Ls and any other variant that can bring it, but it would not be an overpowered tool both for assaults and lightmechs.

Edited by John MatriX82, 10 January 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Mizore]

Inertiaman, on 10 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

I might be jumping to silly conclusions here but isn't ANTI MISSILE SYSTEM supposed to do that? In MWLL lams can take out about half an LRM20 salvo. If you have two it takes out the whole salvo so fire support have to coordinate larger waves.

Jepp, that was really cool in MWLL... you could even shoot down Arrows IV when some vehicles with AMS stood together.

I think the best way would be in MWO to significantly nerf ECM and buff AMS!

Edited by Mizore, 10 January 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Inertiaman, on 10 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

I might be jumping to silly conclusions here but isn't ANTI MISSILE SYSTEM supposed to do that? In MWLL lams can take out about half an LRM20 salvo. If you have two it takes out the whole salvo so fire support have to coordinate larger waves.

Yes, it's supposed to do that. However, in MWO AMS is mostly a waste of tonnage and space (especially since ECM is same size). You need an AMS network to make a difference vs. even one missile boat, and a group of missile boats will overwhelm group of AMS mechs very quickly. Not to mention that AMS has nearly no effect on streaks (as they fly so fast AMS doesn't even have time to react unless it's right at the edge of streaks' range).

And every tiny missile that slips through AMS is a whopping 1.8 damage. It adds up quickly when one boat can fire 60+ of them.

ECM-AMS-LRM-SSRM balance is completely out of whack in MWO, colloquially speaking. With overpowered ECM countering overpowered guided missiles however, we at least have some sort of playable equilibrium. I'd rather see both taken down a notch, and AMS buffed a bit, but what can you do.

MonkeyCheese, on 10 January 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Are you nuts? I I would gladly go back to the days of lrm/ssrm cat online, it was much more enjoyable instead of this crap we have now.

A streak user, or just short memory? How is being murdered by one mech without a chance to retaliate (as jump jets + netcode + screen shake + broken Catapult hitboxes ensured) better than being murdered by another mech?

MonkeyCheese, on 10 January 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

My favs my founders jenner/1b commando/ 90kph ERPPC 4x raven had a much better time back then, its called learn to avoid lrms and stay the hell away from streak boats. Not god mode ecm.

The raidboss could run at over 81 kph with jumpjets and full armor, thanks to how light and heat efficient SSRM2 is for the devastating damage it does. Most mechs physically could not stay away from streak boats. It also enjoyed messed up hitboxes that devoured shots, like every Catapult does.

About "learning to avoid LRMs" - you can if you crawl along the walls, but a full LRM boat can 2-3 shot most mechs, especially with Artemis grouping. Delivering 100 damage per button press the moment you spot the enemy, and being a mobile 1000m zone of area denial isn't balanced at all. "Stay out of LoS" isn't an excuse for instant death on button press if you slip out into LoS. Direct fire weapons need LoS too, that wouldn't excuse making a guided AC50.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 10 January 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 07 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

...my protest will likely take this form. I'm just going to run the Craven and then let everyone know in chat that my mech is "working as intended" according to the devs, My money would be that on Tuesday we get some comment from the devs like "well, we thought about changing ECM but our analytics show that only xx% of people are using it, which we don't think is too high." I will aim to fix that.

After not having much time to play on patch night, I was able to begin my protest in earnest yesterday evening. All night, running the Craven-3L with only basic pilot proficiencies, I had a grand total of 0 losses and 0 deaths. Zero.

Thanks PGI for leaving this wonderfully balanced mechanic in the game for so long with no comment past "working as intended." I made sure to let everyone in chat that complained know it was such. This even generated some post match conversations with opponents in Teamspeak. To my utter amazement, they did not seem to agree that ECM was balanced.

I'm out of town this weekend, but will be back next week to continue to exploit broken mechanics to grief other players enjoy this well balanced equipment, unless I hear of impending changes for next Tuesday.

For those players that may be facing me, please start your ECM builds now. It's clear that our voluntary restraint for the sake of fun through diversity has been skewing the statistics and opinions that go into making these decisions.

[Jesus Box]

Hello, my children. Many heretics have come to disrupt my power, but you must not them take away your faith in me. Let us remember the days when missiles soured freely across the skies and killed many of our loved ones. But I will never let that happen again. So long as you keep your faith in me, I will protect you. For my power is divine, and our cause righteous. All praise me, so foul evil missiles shall never return to smite us again.

[Jesus Box]

3Ls are my wings of justice, with my D DC being the holy club's bouncer to keep out the unfaithful. The Cicada is my beer frig, and the Commando is my kid's toy. I have a perfect set here. Don't need any more.

[Tolkien]

Jesus Box, on 10 January 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Hello, my children. Many heretics have come to disrupt my power, but you must not them take away your faith in me. Let us remember the days when missiles soured freely across the skies and killed many of our loved ones. But I will never let that happen again. So long as you keep your faith in me, I will protect you. For my power is divine, and our cause righteous. All praise me, so foul evil missiles shall never return to smite us again.

But Jesus box... if I bring you, Moses container and mohammad cube at the same time our side still gets to use demonic missile technology while the other does not.

[Malzel]

That's okay. MechwarriorBuddha will come and teach us that life is suffering, and to wish for things to be different than they are brings unhappiness.

[Jesus Box]

Tolkien, on 10 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

But Jesus box... if I bring you, Moses container and mohammad cube at the same time our side still gets to use demonic missile technology while the other does not.

Those other boxes are heretics! All praise the Jesus Box!

[Jukebox1986]

Jesus Box, on 10 January 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

So long as you keep your faith in me, I will protect you. For my power is divine, and our cause righteous. All praise me, so foul evil missiles shall never return to smite us again.

You´re on. I will hunt you down with my missiles, because i´m a hellhound, a dog from hell who will not stop until your golden D-DC is shattered and torn under my stalker´s feet.

[Kenshar]

Fact: Ecm has drastically reduced the diversity of mechs and mech builds seen on the battle field.

[Pilotasso]

ECM is overrated, lets consider this:

Whats different and the same in a Raven 3L and In an atlas D-DC?

Common denominator: they both have ECM.

variables: the atlas is slow and has a big torso easely hit by direct fire, the raven is so small and quick and hard to destroy.

Simplifying the equation by removing ECM from both members: ECM doesnt really matter, hitboxes and collisions is then in evidence.


Practical result, the ATLAS is easely destroyable, the Raven is not.



.

Edited by Pilotasso, 10 January 2013 - 10:51 AM.