442 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Marcus Wulf, on 13 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Thank you, btw there is no nice "you" in a raven 3L!

My lance and I have been running non-ECM mechs ( 2 x Cats, Dragon and Cataphract) last week and almost all of the matches we were in the other team had ECM suppriority, yet we were winning a constant ratio of 10:1 with the loss attributed to bad decissions.

The only time ECM played a role in our drops was when we were dropping 8 man and had LRM and SSRM boats, to which support was necessary (countering and destroying ECM emiiters or luring / forcing targets out of the bubble).

On PUG drops I am seeing less ECM capable mechs and more LRM and SRM boats. On these drops the only time I saw that ECM played a deciding factor when the last man standing was a "Stalker Streaker".

-Marcus

Marcus a 10:1 ratio is damn fine and makes my 3/2 look like crap!

The only comment I can offer is that I have heard it rumoured that the current matchmaker pairs 4's with other 4's.

This might explain why your gut is telling you that you're doing fine without ECM, since you are. It just might be due to having 2 4 man premades against a sea of derp

That said if you could start tracking the same kind of data I did, we might be able to put a number on what the balance is between ECM numbers and true team coordination/teamwork.

Could be interesting.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 January 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Abivard, on 13 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

the inventors of TT knew very little about warfare, less about missiles and squat about EW, this game has no relation to RL anything, so just freaking stop with the RL and TT benchmarks, they don't exist.

Really, just try and learn to play the game, if you can't learn, and your not playing, why are you camping and trolling the boards?

This isn't the tabletop game.

If PGI wants to include ECM, then it should model what the item does in the source material, or it should model what the item does in real life, or it should sacrifice immersion for the sake of gameplay. In my well-considered opinion, as someone who has adapted to the inclusion of ECM, I don't think it does any of those 3.

StalaggtIKE, on 13 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

That the issue of ECM superiority is prevalent in games consisting of teams with similarly equal skill level and organization, ie: pugs vs pugs.

It was asserted, though I don't think it was established.

If ECM is disproportionately prevalent among teams and the more skilled players, I would take that as evidence that ECM is disproportionately effective.

---

ECM doesn't need to be unbeatable to be a problem. It just needs to be the best option available. So yes, I believe that a team of skilled players without ECM can walk over a bunch of ECM-equipped mechs, just like they could walk over teams of streak-cats or gauss-cats. That's perfectly plausible.

[Big Bad Wulf]

The matchmaker matches 4 vs 4 but is not mech specific, like we ran into an all Hunchie team and the 3 raven 3L's and a ECM Comando, Supported by a DDC, 2 x Stalkers and Dragon (Caustic Valley and they came in piecemeal). So I dont think so.

I have screen shots galore, if you can send me the format for consistency purposes, I will start as soon as possible.

[Tolkien]

Marcus Wulf, on 13 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

The matchmaker matches 4 vs 4 but is not mech specific, like we ran into an all Hunchie team and the 3 raven 3L's and a ECM Comando, Supported by a DDC, 2 x Stalkers and Dragon (Caustic Valley and they came in piecemeal). So I dont think so.

I have screen shots galore, if you can send me the format for consistency purposes, I will start as soon as possible.

I'll put together a PM asap.

[ICEFANG13]

The suggestion that ECM needs to be balanced by limiting it on drops really implies that it is broken. You can't say it needs limitations and that its fine, that is a contradiction.

Abivard, on 13 January 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

You went to a lot of work and I applaud your efforts, but the sample size,amount of unknown variables as well as a lack of control group rather invalidates everything.

Let me ask you a personal question here, if you could equip ECM on your mechs, all of them, what percent of them would not have it? Honestly. Mine would be 0%, there is no reason to not make room for the plethora of effects it provides. Even 1.5 tons of armor provide less cover than ECM will probably do.

[StalaggtIKE]

Marcus Tanner, on 13 January 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

It was asserted, though I don't think it was established.

How so? His test included pugs vs pugs, a random group of skill sets.

Quote

If ECM is disproportionately prevalent among teams and the more skilled players, I would take that as evidence that ECM is disproportionately effective.

I am constantly hearing this is the case in 8vs8.

Quote

ECM doesn't need to be unbeatable to be a problem. It just needs to be the best option available. So yes, I believe that a team of skilled players without ECM can walk over a bunch of ECM-equipped mechs, just like they could walk over teams of streak-cats or gauss-cats. That's perfectly plausible.

I agree it does not and it is beatable. But are you saying that ECM is not the best option given it's tonnage and abilities!? If every mech had the ability to carry ECM, I know I would. Prior to ECM I was carrying BAP on most of my mechs, if I had a bit of tonnage left over. I can say BAP without a doubt is not as useful as ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 13 January 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Valaska]

In 8v8 you are hard pressed to find a team running less than six ECM units, and full 8 ECM units is fairly common... Maybe PGI is enjoying the short term sales increases of the expensive mechs? Maybe all they care about is that its now more or less forcing people who enter 8 mans to buy a 20 dollar atlas, or the Raven/Commando's?

[ICEFANG13]

Sometimes I wonder. Even though they will make more in a balanced game...

[Valaska]

ICEFANG13, on 13 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Sometimes I wonder. Even though they will make more in a balanced game...

They did for a month there, right before ECM missiles fell out of common use and were used as a support weapon, the UAC5 Cataphract did stomp around for a bit but that was actually counter-able by player skill and tact. Then ECM hit and people played around for a little, then entire teams rolled it just because we all figured out "Hey you're in a bad way without this stuff!"

[ICEFANG13]

Yeah I remember, I've played for a while, even though not all was perfect, it was fat better than this ****.

I did not say, 'poo' I said 's-m-u-t' as in, this fungus that envelopes the game, and while it can be eaten, I'll think I'll stay eating tasty corn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_smut

Edited by ICEFANG13, 13 January 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[Abivard]

I don't think the more vocal trolls really play the game, they just pretend they do.

The main whine really boils down to ECM took away the easy button.

Most of these guys can't be playing if they are always camping the boards.

[Noth]

Abivard, on 13 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

I don't think the more vocal trolls really play the game, they just pretend they do.

The main whine really boils down to ECM took away the easy button.

Most of these guys can't be playing if they are always camping the boards.

It took away an easy button and replaced it with an easier thing that doesn't even take a button.

[ICEFANG13]

Abivard, on 13 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

I don't think the more vocal trolls really play the game, they just pretend they do.

The main whine really boils down to ECM took away the easy button.

Most of these guys can't be playing if they are always camping the boards.

Let me ask you this, once again, because obviously you are a troll. Anti-ECM players want it to be balanced, provide feedback why they feel this way, and make suggestions. You don't, you just troll and say its fine.

Ok, what are the disadvantages to ECM? Everything else has some?
If you could put it on all of your mechs, would you?
How would you feel about a 1.5 ton, 2 slot equipment that made SRMs and Ballistics not work? Now what if it did more?
Have you heard of the beast 1 Medium Laser, 1 Small Laser build? Only certain mechs can use it, but that 1.5 tons and 2 slots destroys entire mechs? Crazy amazing build.

[Big Bad Wulf]

ICEFANG13, on 13 January 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Let me ask you this, once again, because obviously you are a troll. Anti-ECM players want it to be balanced, provide feedback why they feel this way, and make suggestions. You don't, you just troll and say its fine.

Ok, what are the disadvantages to ECM? Everything else has some?
If you could put it on all of your mechs, would you?
How would you feel about a 1.5 ton, 2 slot equipment that made SRMs and Ballistics not work? Now what if it did more?
Have you heard of the beast 1 Medium Laser, 1 Small Laser build? Only certain mechs can use it, but that 1.5 tons and 2 slots destroys entire mechs? Crazy amazing build.

Hi Ice,

I would like to add "only if you know what you are doing". Otherwise you just made yourself the primary target in every drop.

[ICEFANG13]

Why? Is it because ECM is by far the strongest thing in the game right now and everyone focuses it? That's not a reason why its balanced.

[Big Bad Wulf]

ICEFANG13, on 13 January 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Why? Is it because ECM is by far the strongest thing in the game right now and everyone focuses it? That's not a reason why its balanced.

Nope, its not - LRM's are - have you ever gotten smothered by 2 Stalker LRM boats? Not a very nice feeling, ECM you have to pilot, shoot straight, having it does not guarantee kill or survival.

Ex. pack of Raven 3L's who went straight into a prepared firing line and was stupid enough to stay or the ECM comando running straight towards an Atlas with an AC 2o.... or standing in front of a dual AC 20 CAT... (That was funny only the legs was left)

Edited by Marcus Wulf, 13 January 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

The Space Pope feels that ECM is interesting in theory but in practice it currently needs some balancing or work.

[Valaska]

I've been smothered by LRM's before, and it was always due to my own fault, just as you are claiming these ECM mechs are so vulnerable to pilot error. I didn't use LRM's to be honest, ECM removed a lot in the way of pilot error, you are protected from missiles completely, don't joke about TAG, it barely works.

Ex.A pack of Raven 3L's are running out in the middle of the map at full speed, they can't be targeted by any missiles (Which have a chance to miss them), and are moving fast enough to make even the best pilots out htere miss a few shots on them. They close in the distance either overloaded with heavy weapons or streaks, streaks won't even work through TAG here, thats if anyone wasted tonnage for a TAG instead of bringing an ECM mech, mind you.

With the combination of Network Lag, and close range speed they now tear up the mixed force, focus firing becomes irrelevant because they can run into you and teleport to the other side of you and get mixed up into the pack. You can't even get a rag doll to see if you are hitting them to check if network lag is actually full swing!

OR!

All the Ravens ditch their usual streak builds for LRM's, they bombard a non ECM force with complete impunity due to ECM, and Network lag/speed.

Or Atlas' just sport ECM and 3 LRM 15's, They have room for Gauss etc.

Now what is your solution? "You should be taking as many ECM's as they are!" That's not balanced, that's not fun, that's not intelligent or even tactics. That takes the mixed forces we could sport before, the thought and planning into builds, and puts it into rock paper fricken scissors. That makes it into "We've brought this many ECM's, hopefully we are running more than them."

You aren't even playing the ******** game if you are about to tell me in 8v8, or even PUG's, that there is still a variety of mechs. It is LITERALLY almost all: Atlas - Raven - Stalker (New Mech people want to try it) - Commando. They should literally just release ECM for every mech or deal with its obvious imbalance.

[ICEFANG13]

Marcus Wulf, on 13 January 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Nope, its not - LRM's are - have you ever gotten smothered by 2 Stalker LRM boats? Not a very nice feeling, ECM you have to pilot, shoot straight, having it does not guarantee kill or survival.

Ex. pack of Raven 3L's who went straight into a prepared firing line and was stupid enough to stay or the ECM comando running straight towards an Atlas with an AC 2o.... or standing in front of a dual AC 20 CAT... (That was funny only the legs was left)

Why did you walk out in the open and let them do that do you?

Also, 2 LRM Stalkers, that is more than 1 ECM by a lot. 1 LRM 20+1 ton ammo weighs 11 tons and 6 slots, which 8 ECM weigh 12 tons and take up 16 slots. Are you trying to tell me that 1 LRM-20 is more powerful than 7 ECMs?

I mean yeah, if you have 2 LRM stalkers and they dedicate their builds to it, they can kill you when you wonder in about 3 times as many slots (which are spread over 8 mechs too) as 1 LRM-20. Why does this not seem balanced?

Just popped into a Raven-3L, this is so easy, nothing compares. Everyone should do this too, cause there is only 1 real counter for ECM...

Edited by ICEFANG13, 13 January 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Big Bad Wulf]

ICEFANG13, on 13 January 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Why did you walk out in the open and let them do that do you?

Also, 2 LRM Stalkers, that is more than 1 ECM by a lot. 1 LRM 20+1 ton ammo weighs 11 tons and 6 slots, which 8 ECM weigh 12 tons and take up 16 slots. Are you trying to tell me that 1 LRM-20 is more powerful than 7 ECMs?

I mean yeah, if you have 2 LRM stalkers and they dedicate their builds to it, they can kill you when you wonder in about 3 times as many slots (which are spread over 8 mechs too) as 1 LRM-20. Why does this not seem balanced?

Just popped into a Raven-3L, this is so easy, nothing compares. Everyone should do this too, cause there is only 1 real counter for ECM...

Hmm... because we were fighting in the open? There are very few places that can hide an Atlas-D... Tempting but no.