59 replies to this topic

[TruePoindexter]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

My 4 PPC 2 Medium laser 5S with the stock engine gets better heat efficiency with the singles than the doubles.

With assault mechs where weight is more plentiful than space this is definitely a possibility.

[Ravennus]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

My 4 PPC 2 Medium laser 5S with the stock engine gets better heat efficiency with the singles than the doubles.

How many heatsinks do you have? 31?

What a lot of people don't get is that in-engine DHS actually count for 2x not 1.4x
This has been tested and confirmed by the devs, though the heat efficiency in the Mechlab is calculated wrong.


You can get 18 DHS in that setup, which actually gives you the equivalent of 31.2 single heatsinks.... and you have enough room left to upgrade to a standard 300 engine and also add some missiles, ams, etc

[Suko]

Quxudica, on 08 January 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Does it have any obvious issues such as large head or bad hard point placements?

Some models only have a torso twist of ~60 degrees from center instead of the standard 90. I was very grumpy when I discovered this.

[Noth]

Ravennus, on 09 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

How many heatsinks do you have? 31?

What a lot of people don't get is that in-engine DHS actually count for 2x not 1.4x
This has been tested and confirmed by the devs, though the heat efficiency in the Mechlab is calculated wrong.


You can get 18 DHS in that setup, which actually gives you the equivalent of 31.2 single heatsinks.... and you have enough room left to upgrade to a standard 300 engine and also add some missiles, ams, etc

go to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de

You can get higher efficiency with the stock engine (an XL 255) with singles. You can only get 16 DHS with it.

[Tickdoff Tank]

If you want to try something a little different with a Stalker, try this:

3F

300XL

2PPCs
1 LL
1 LRM 15
3 SSRM2s
20 DHS
Full armor

It works much better than you might think, at least it does for me. The PPCs have a nice punch, the LL is a solid weapon at all ranges, the LRM when they are in the open and the SSRMs for close range work. Since you will lay off the PPCs up close and the SSRMs are not used at long range, the heat is quite manageable. I have put up some really impressive numbers with this build, and I reccomend you give it a shot if it appeals to you.

[Ravennus]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

go to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de

You can get higher efficiency with the stock engine (an XL 255) with singles. You can only get 16 DHS with it.

Yes.... I use Smurfy's Mechlab as well...


First off, why are you using the stock XL255 engine? Not only are you slow, but you will go down very quickly when either of your side torsos are blown off. Which with the Stalker, is quite often.

Second, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. If you have at least a size 250 engine or higher and DHS, each of those 10 in-engine DHS count as true double heatsinks instead of the nerfed 1.4 value that they get everywhere else on the mech.
You get this on smaller engines, but they come packaged with less internal heatsinks, and thus less true double heatsinks.


Here, let me show you.

This is close to your build, correct? Stock XL255 engine, 4 PPCs and 2 MLAS.
Slightly less than stock armor, but enough to fit in 31 single heatsinks. 22% Heat Efficiency.
STK-5S


Now in a couple seconds I whipped this up. Same as yours, but with 19 DHS.
If you do the math, that is equal to 32.6 single heat sinks... and Smurfy's Mechlab agrees.
It says 23% heat efficiency, better than yours.
Also, it has a 300 standard engine that lets you move faster and won't get you cored so easily.
It also has WAY more armor than yours (480 vs 416).
Oh, and I also fit in AMS... because why not?
STK-5S


The only time your build might catch up in cooling is when you are standing in water, but then you have to put up with worse cooling the rest of the time as well as a much worse engine, armor and lack of AMS.

The More You Know

I like the 4 PPC build though... I'm working on one myself for when they reduce the heat, but it has 2 SLAS instead of MLAS and 4 SSRM2s. Oh, and 2 AMS just because why not?



.

[Noth]

Ravennus, on 09 January 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Yes.... I use Smurfy's Mechlab as well...


First off, why are you using the stock XL255 engine? Not only are you slow, but you will go down very quickly when either of your side torsos are blown off. Which with the Stalker, is quite often.

Second, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. If you have at least a size 250 engine or higher and DHS, each of those 10 in-engine DHS count as true double heatsinks instead of the nerfed 1.4 value that they get everywhere else on the mech.
You get this on smaller engines, but they come packaged with less internal heatsinks, and thus less true double heatsinks.


Here, let me show you.

This is close to your build, correct? Stock XL255 engine, 4 PPCs and 2 MLAS.
Slightly less than stock armor, but enough to fit in 31 single heatsinks. 22% Heat Efficiency.
STK-5S


Now in a couple seconds I whipped this up. Same as yours, but with 19 DHS.
If you do the math, that is equal to 32.6 single heat sinks... and Smurfy's Mechlab agrees.
It says 23% heat efficiency, better than yours.
Also, it has a 300 standard engine that lets you move faster and won't get you cored so easily.
It also has WAY more armor than yours (480 vs 416).
Oh, and I also fit in AMS... because why not?
STK-5S


The only time your build might catch up in cooling is when you are standing in water, but then you have to put up with worse cooling the rest of the time as well as a much worse engine, armor and lack of AMS.

The More You Know

I like the 4 PPC build though... I'm working on one myself for when they reduce the heat, but it has 2 SLAS instead of MLAS and 4 SSRM2s. Oh, and 2 AMS just because why not?



.

SIgh you missed the qualifier, with the stock engine. I rather buy mechs than buy a larger XL so for my build singles are better. I never once said the build was the most optimized build. Please don't say I'm wrong when I am in fact right. Some builds are more efficient with singles. You don't need a lot of speed in the build. You also should be engaging at a range that you don't get torn up that fast. Heck you don't even need AMS if you use cover properly.

Edited by Noth, 09 January 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[Ravennus]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

SIgh you missed the qualifier, with the stock engine. I rather buy mechs than buy a larger XL so for my build singles are better. I never once said the build was the most optimized build. Please don't say I'm wrong when I am in fact right. Some builds are more efficient with singles. You don't need a lot of speed in the build. You also should be engaging at a range that you don't get torn up that fast. Heck you don't even need AMS if you use cover properly.

*Sigh* Ok, we are sighing now?

You realize you can sell that stock xl255 for more than it costs to buy yourself a standard 300 engine right?
You'll even have enough money left over to get close to affording the DHS upgrade.
Here, look.... STK-5S

You don't even need Endo. That would just give you even more armor and AMS. Even without it this build is fractionally cooler than your build, more durable and faster.

In an ideal world, yes, you wouldn't ever engage the enemy close up. You would also always have cover and never have to worry about catching up with your team mates so you aren't a tasty snack for faster enemy mechs when caught alone..... but how often does that happen in this game?


So yes, I'm missing your point apparently.
What is your point exactly? That in subpar builds single hitsinks are better? Yes... you are right. Congrats.

Not sure how that is relevant, however. I'm sure there are VERY rare optimized builds where single heatsinks are better, but yours is certainly not one of them.

If you are truly just buying the Stalker 5S to gut it for the XL engine destined for another mech, that's fine.
But you can't say that single heat sinks are better than DHS for your Stalker without at least attempting to make a decent build first, and Standard engines are cheap cheap cheap.
A Standard 300 would also work well in builds for all the Stalker variants, so you can swap it out to your hearts delight and save even more money that way.

Edited by Ravennus, 09 January 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Noth]

Ravennus, on 09 January 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

*Sigh* Ok, we are sighing now?

You realize you can sell that stock xl255 for more than it costs to buy yourself a standard 300 engine right?
You'll even have enough money left over to get close to affording the DHS upgrade.
Here, look.... STK-5S

You don't even need Endo. That would just give you even more armor and AMS. Even without it this build is fractionally cooler than your build, more durable and faster.

In an ideal world, yes, you wouldn't ever engage the enemy close up. You would also always have cover and never have to worry about catching up with your team mates so you aren't a tasty snack for faster enemy mechs when caught alone..... but how often does that happen in this game?


So yes, I'm missing your point apparently.
What is your point exactly? That in subpar builds single hitsinks are better? Yes... you are right. Congrats.

Not sure how that is relevant, however. I'm sure there are VERY rare optimized builds where single heatsinks are better, but yours is certainly not one of them.

I never run into problems of lagging so far behind others that I'm lunch. In fact that actually helps me since I can stay at range easier. Again, I'd rather just spend my money on mechs and the weapons, not engines. Again, you don't need an optimized build. I've killed optimized build head up with my build. I have no reason to upgrade it further as it performs well and can net me 4+kills and 900+ in games quite often. And again, I never said it was optimized so why are you trying to claim that my build is worse than an optimized build that uses a different engine. My build is as optimized as it can be with the stock engine. DHS for me do not help. So yes, depending on build SHS can be better than DHS.

Edited by Noth, 09 January 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[verybad]

Odins Fist, on 09 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

.
.... is the awful overheat King of the month.
.
That will be all.

Heat depends on your build. If your'e overarming it, and not taking heat into account, then it overheats...like every other mech in the game...

[Ryvucz]

Just keep in mind from the front, your side torsos are much larger than your center torso, and are very prone to exploding, causing you to lose half of your firepower quickly.

I do not recommend putting an XL in these (or any assault, for that matter). But I'm weird like that.

[Ravennus]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

I never run into problems of lagging so far behind others that I'm lunch. In fact that actually helps me since I can stay at range easier. Again, I'd rather just spend my money on mechs and the weapons, not engines. Again, you don't need an optimized build. I've killed optimized build head up with my build. I have no reason to upgrade it further as it performs well and can net me 4+kills and 900+ in games quite often. And again, I never said it was optimized so why are you trying to claim that my build is worse than an optimized build that uses a different engine. My build is as optimized as it can be with the stock engine. DHS for me do not help. So yes, depending on build SHS can be better than DHS.

As I said, you aren't spending a dime on another engine. You actually make out like a bandit selling that xl255 and buying a standard 300 engine.

If you claim to do so well with that build, then you would only perform better with mine. It has the exact same weapons, runs cooler, is better armored, won't die to side torso hits, moves faster, etc etc
I'm sure someone could even come up with something better, as I made mine in seconds.

Again, you seem to be saying that in subpar builds, single heat sinks are better. That's not proving anything.
I also think it's disingenuous to new players that might be reading this topic about Stalkers, who then might read your post and think that single heat sinks are the best way to go.

[Taurick]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

SIgh you missed the qualifier, with the stock engine. I rather buy mechs than buy a larger XL so for my build singles are better. I never once said the build was the most optimized build. Please don't say I'm wrong when I am in fact right. Some builds are more efficient with singles. You don't need a lot of speed in the build. You also should be engaging at a range that you don't get torn up that fast. Heck you don't even need AMS if you use cover properly.

He isn't using an XL engine, he is using a larger STANDARD engine

Maybe you should actually read peoples damn posts instead of sitting with your fingers in your ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG"

So in summation your build has worse cooling, worse speed, worse armour, less DPS, and a steel coffin with an XL engine.

We're right, you're wrong.

Singles are crap, better cooling can be achieved on all builds by keeping std internal structure and running 8-11 floating DHS

[Noth]

Taurich, on 09 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

He isn't using an XL engine, he is using a larger STANDARD engine

Maybe you should actually read peoples damn posts instead of sitting with your fingers in your ears "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG"

So in summation your build has worse cooling, worse speed, worse armour, less DPS, and a steel coffin with an XL engine.

We're right, you're wrong.

Singles are crap, better cooling can be achieved on all builds by keeping std internal structure and running 8-11 floating DHS

You aren't listening, with the stock engine my build is as optimized as it can be and doesn't need more to perform well. I'm not a mimaxer, because you do not need to be to be able to do well in this game. Also, no there are some builds that get better cooling with Singles. It's one of the reason so many don't like the current DHS implementation.

Edited by Noth, 09 January 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[Ravennus]

Also, if you aren't utilizing the double AMS available on the 5S, then you are certainly better off going with a 3F.
You can do the same exact build and it has better torso twist range.

It also costs a LOT less than the 5S.... about 7.6 million VS. almost 11 million.
So after selling the stock engine in the 3F and stripping the mech, you can buy a 300 engine, DHS, and Endo and it still ends up cheaper than the 5S.

But if you are just buying the 5S to cannibalize the xl255 engine for a different mech build, fair enough, as I said.

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

You aren't listening, with the stock engine my build is as optimized as it can be and doesn't need more to perform well. I'm not a mimaxer, because you do not need to be to be able to do well in this game. Also, no there are some builds that get better cooling with Singles. It's one of the reason so many don't like the current DHS implementation.

So you are sticking with the stock engine... even though it is worse.... and will get you killed a lot quicker... because you are stubborn. Gotcha.

Yup, better builds don't make a difference in this game..... LALALALALALALALALA

[BerryChunks]

The stalker has gameplay balance advantages being abnormally small for it's size, thus reducing it's hitboxes. It weighs 5 tons more and has better hardpoints, and more hardpoints so much easier to boat with.

the Awesome is designed with realistic Battletech limited hardpoint numbers, but it has a disproportionately morphed "chibi Mech" feel with a giant torso.

Stalker is superior.

[Noth]

Ravennus, on 09 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

So you are sticking with the stock engine... even though it is worse.... and will get you killed a lot quicker... because you are stubborn. Gotcha.

Yup, better builds don't make a difference in this game..... LALALALALALALALALA

Never said better builds aren't better. I said I can make this build perform to what I need it to. I don't change it because I'd rather all my money go to mechs and I don't sell parts because I rather collect the parts for use later. I don't play enough (only a couple hours a day if that) to be both buying mechs and fully changing them as well. If I can make a mech perform to where I want it to without spending all that much or massive changes then that is what works.

[Ravennus]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Never said better builds aren't better. I said I can make this build perform to what I need it to. I don't change it because I'd rather all my money go to mechs and I don't sell parts because I rather collect the parts for use later. I don't play enough (only a couple hours a day if that) to be both buying mechs and fully changing them as well. If I can make a mech perform to where I want it to without spending all that much or massive changes then that is what works.

And that's great... for you.
(even if your logic makes no sense internally, as I already showed you how you could spend less and get more)


But how does that revelation contribute to this discussion exactly?

"Single heat sinks are better... for me... in this subpar build that only I use...."

We are discussing the capability of the Stalker in general, after all, and the subject turned to DHS on a Stalker.
Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but what does it matter that you found a poor build with a crappy stock xl255 engine that fits more single heat sinks than DHS?

Or are you just here to pad your post count, Mr. 3000+?

[Taurick]

Noth, on 09 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

You aren't listening, with the stock engine my build is as optimized as it can be and doesn't need more to perform well. I'm not a mimaxer, because you do not need to be to be able to do well in this game. Also, no there are some builds that get better cooling with Singles. It's one of the reason so many don't like the current DHS implementation.

Some? Try few? Try one or two?
The only reason a SHS build would get better cooling than DHS is if your build is crap. ie you've stupidly gone and got lots of PPC's + ES structure + XL engine and shafted yourself for slots. Even then if you spent 5 minutes playing crit tetris you could probably squeeze on another DHS or two.

I'm not sure what your point is? That SHS can work better in special cases of terrible build planning?

The reason people don't like DHS implementation is because it strongly promotes fitting the biggest damn engine in that you can, in order to get as many 'free' DHS and critless DHS slots possible.
Something that you appear not to have picked up on.

edit: Your point on wanting to save cash is pretty moot, selling the stock XL easily nets you enough for the faster, safer, cooler running std300, with cash left over to go towards the DHS upgrade

Edited by Taurich, 09 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Ravennus]

Taurich, on 09 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

The reason people don't like DHS implementation is because it strongly promotes fitting the biggest damn engine in that you can, in order to get as many 'free' DHS and critless DHS slots possible.
Something that you appear not to have picked up on.

Yup, exactly!

Taurich, on 09 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

edit: Your point on wanting to save cash is pretty moot, selling the stock XL easily nets you enough for the faster, safer, cooler running std300, with cash left over to go towards the DHS upgrade

I know! That's what I already told him, repeatedly.

Ravennus, on 09 January 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

You realize you can sell that stock xl255 for more than it costs to buy yourself a standard 300 engine right?
You'll even have enough money left over to get close to affording the DHS upgrade.

Ravennus, on 09 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

As I said, you aren't spending a dime on another engine. You actually make out like a bandit selling that xl255 and buying a standard 300 engine.