339 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

stjobe, on 15 January 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Thanks for chiming in with some hard facts, Garth. Could you possibly divulge what kind of damage buff you're testing? It seemed in the last Command Chair post that a damage buff wasn't on the table; that you were going only for the crit buff?

I didn't read the Command Chair post like that. I just read it like "here's what's coming up, and the new system is nice and we'll use it in the future, and here's some of the more recent advantages you'll see out of it". I don't really see anywhere that it is even implied that this is all that is happening to the machine gun and flamers, only that its a buff (However small it may or may not end up being) to look forward too, not that its the only buff.

[stjobe]

Orzorn, on 15 January 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I didn't read the Command Chair post like that. I just read it like "here's what's coming up, and the new system is nice and we'll use it in the future, and here's some of the more recent advantages you'll see out of it". I don't really see anywhere that it is even implied that this is all that is happening to the machine gun and flamers, only that its a buff (However small it may or may not end up being) to look forward too, not that its the only buff.

Well this

Quote

I've been looking at Machine Guns lately (because they're equipped on my griefer Mech) and decided to make each bullet do 500 damage. Ok.. seriously I'm looking into either a very slight damage increase or to make them crit at a higher rate with a crit damage boost. What does that mean? When you blow off the armor on a component on an enemy Mech, every shot done to internals from a machine gun has a chance of doing much higher damage than normal. I'll be working with the engineers on this and will update you as we progress on this.

And this

Quote

For example, the current Machine Gun does 0.04 damage per bullet. IF the Machine Gun crits, it has the potential of doing 0.04, 0.08 or 0.12 damage to an internal item. Obviously that's not a lot of damage. Hence the new system implemented allows me to add a multiplier to this damage model.

What does that mean to you? After I've completed my first pass at multiplier numbers and after it goes through testing, you will notice that the Machine Gun will become a formidable weapon when used against a component that has no armor. Basically it will start to shred items that are mounted on the targeted component.

Combined with this

Quote

MG will become the first critical hit weapon. The LBX will get the same treatment as well.

It will be given a huge critical hit multiplier similar to what it does in TT rules.

So against armor the MachineGun will remain useless (but fun to use dammit!). But as soon as armor is gone and it starts tearing into 'flesh' it will be given a big critical hit damage multiplier.

It will literally rip apart the insides of a unprotected component.

Was how I arrived at the MG not getting any damage buff, but just a crit buff (which I believe to be a mistake).

Edited by stjobe, 15 January 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[Syncline]

So, because it seems to be the right way to do things around here, I'll bring up personal anecdotes to support my opinions on game balance. Here goes:

I was in the US Army as an Abrams tank crewmember. If our cannon failed, or we ran out of cannon ammo, or one of the myriad other bad things happened that prevented us from firing 120mm awesomeness, we trained to use our .50 cal machineguns to try to shoot out enemy tank targeting equipment, exposed fuel cans, suspension/locomotion equipment, etc.

In other words, we crit hunted.

EDIT: MechWarrior fans take this game far too seriously. So many emotions get riled up over pixels on a screen!

Edited by Syncline, 15 January 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[rgreat]

Garth Erlam, on 15 January 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Which is why we are testing both

Both options suck.

[Mahws]

That's some great constructive criticism right there rgreat, really getting a feel for what you think is a better idea for the game balance.

Syncline, on 15 January 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

.50 cal machineguns

And I trained to use my .22 rifle to shoot for the heart of a rabbit. In other words I crit hunted.

A .50 cal isn't a half tonne (unloaded) weapon, may as well compare the use of a BB gun to it for all the relevance it has.

[Skyfaller]

Dunno if the MG was buffed without it appearing on the patch notes or if there is an error on the mechlab...


but a spider loading 4 machine guns is listing a damage of '8' . MGs only. 4. Nothing else.

Tried it in game and of course, they still are useless.

..which makes the ballistic spider completely useless along with it. The thing doesnt have the tonnage to even load a single AC2 and carry ammo for it.

[MustrumRidcully]

Skyfaller, on 15 January 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Dunno if the MG was buffed without it appearing on the patch notes or if there is an error on the mechlab...


but a spider loading 4 machine guns is listing a damage of '8' . MGs only. 4. Nothing else.

Tried it in game and of course, they still are useless.

..which makes the ballistic spider completely useless along with it. The thing doesnt have the tonnage to even load a single AC2 and carry ammo for it.

Apparantly, the MG has been treated like this for a while now. Apparantly, even the firepower stat is suspect, not just the heat efficiency stat.

[Tarman]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 January 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

The Gauss only does 20 points of damage. There is a huge difference. A ton of MG ammo theoretically at 200 damage explosions could destroy an Atlas's entire internal structure. A Gauss explosion cannot. I don't know if the MMO follows TT for Ammo explosion effects but a ton of MG ammo (at 200 damage) in your Mechs leg would destroy the leg, then the side torso, then the center torso. That is a lot of repair. That is what I am reminding folk of. Remember the Nerf when asking for Buffs. They must balance. Gauss Rifle (Buff) Heavy hitting hammer at all ranges no heat. (Nerf) Blows up when the enemy looks at it cross eyed! Balance.

Makes sense to me on one level. Six hundred rounds of MG ammostacks deciding to all fire off inside your internal structure should probably kill you.

BUT ALSO

In pure gaming terms the MG is currently useless. As in "leave your mech at sub-optimal tonnage instead of taking it" useless. So the planned improvement in functionality is not making it the next unbalanced ubersystem, it is giving it a chance to even bring something, anything to the fight in the first place. It's already piteous enough that large ammo explosion numbers are a cool-for-hardcore-play-but-unnecessary burden to an already marginalized hardpoint choice in low-weight ballistics. If you want to hand out pure death for the option of filling in an auxilliary slot, let us have ammo dumping first so it's a choice whether you want to risk fireworking your own internals.

[Kmieciu]

Here`s another reason why machineguns are useless, especially for fast mechs:

Fast mechs need quick weapons, with high burst damage. Right now, you cannot beat a Medium laser. 5 damage during a 1 second strafing run. That`s better than AC2 or AC5. You can put 6 medium lasers on a Jenner or a Cicada (Garth Style).
You are able to do 30 damage during 1 second using only 6 tonnes for weapons. At the same time you`ve got 3,23 DPS which you can sustain indefinitely.


30 burst damage (during first second)
3,23 DPS
270 meters of range (540 max)
pinpoint damage,
no travel time

FOR 6 tonnes

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d7b4182fcc69c65

How many machineguns would you get for 6 tonnes?

10 machineguns + 1tonne of ammo:
4 burst damage (during first second)
4 DPS
90 meters of range (200 max)
spread damage
projectile speed: 100 meters per second

MEDIUM LASER ARE THE BEST CRIT SEEKERS FOR LIGHT MECHS. 30 points of burst damage almost guarantees to destroy components in an unarmored location during 1 second.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 January 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[KerenskyClone]

Garth Erlam, on 15 January 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Which is why we are testing both

Thanks for the heads up Garth. That wasnt really clear from the Command post, that is why we are concerned. Right now it is good to know that MG damage is also being looked at.

[movingtarget]

for a nastier rl machiengun to to compare btech mgs ot would be this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV

it fires 14.5mm rounds that where made to be used in an antitank rifle, it can pen 32 mm of steel plate at 500 meters, the weapon its self is 50kg so think how beefy one that is 10 times as heavy would be,

add in the fact that most mechs have exposed joints,vents and missile tubes its not that outlandish that a btech mg can hurt mech armor

Edited by movingtarget, 05 February 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[Alvor]

A little off topic but very related.

Perhaps instead of buffing the MG the devs should put in npc infantry guarding bases/resources and key points so the MG once again has a purpose.

BTW TT Battletech is different than Mechwarrior pen & paper so calling this game Mechwarrior Online is kinda balancing on 3 types of games.

[FupDup]

Alvor, on 12 February 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Perhaps instead of buffing the MG the devs should put in npc infantry guarding bases/resources and key points so the MG once again has a purpose.

Adding NPC infantry would still leave MGs useless as all hell because you could just click-and-drag a medium laser over a whole squad of them to kill them instantly.

[Kmieciu]

movingtarget, on 05 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

for a nastier rl machiengun to to compare btech mgs ot would be this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV

it fires 14.5mm rounds that where made to be used in an antitank rifle, it can pen 32 mm of steel plate at 500 meters, the weapon its self is 50kg so think how beefy one that is 10 times as heavy would be,

add in the fact that most mechs have exposed joints,vents and missile tubes its not that outlandish that a btech mg can hurt mech armor

According to Sarna, a "Machine Gun" is actually a 20 mm gatling (rotary) gun : http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_gun
If you wanted real life counterpart, it would probably be something like M61 Vulcan used on F16:

[Alvor]

FupDup, on 12 February 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Adding NPC infantry would still leave MGs useless as all hell because you could just click-and-drag a medium laser over a whole squad of them to kill them instantly.

I was referring to tabletop MG multipliers damage against infantry while other weapons had negatives to hitting/damage infantry.

Sorry that some did not understand that.

Perhaps npc vehicles would be interesting as well.

Overall the table top rules had everything already balanced out so trying to stick to it would be great but I am aware that it does not always translate well into FPS style shooters.

Edited by Alvor, 13 February 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[Alvor]

Alvor, on 13 February 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

I was referring to tabletop MG multipliers damage against infantry while other weapons had negatives to hitting/damage infantry.

Sorry that some did not understand that.

Perhaps npc vehicles would be interesting as well.

Overall the table top rules had everything already balanced out so trying to stick to it would be great but I am aware that it does not always translate well into FPS style shooters.

Edited by Alvor, 13 February 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[Jonathan Paine]

I served in the infantry, my brother served in the artillery. Both these experiences are completely USELESS when it comes to understanding fictional weapons that has been developed more than 800 years in the future.

As yet another 25+ year BattleTech player, I favor buffing the MG along the lines suggested by the op, while cutting down on the total amount of shots per ton and including ammo explosions.

Why?

1. Lack of lightweight ballistics weapons in the game, which renders lighter mechs with primarily ballistic mounts less than useful
2. The game I loved playing stated that this weapon should be able to damage 'mechs
3. Balance between the three different weapon groups. There are several missile launchers and energy weapons that weigh 3 tons or less. Only one for ballistics.
4. Running after 'mechs while holding down the firing button, watching and hearing MG rounds impacting the enemy and laughing maniacally rocks!

[stjobe]

I'll just put this in for all the people hung up on real-world machine guns:

The 120mm guns on the main battle tanks of today aren't guns or cannons in BattleTech, they're Light Rifles, and they are unable to damage 'mechs.

The BattleTech MG does 2 damage to a 'mech.

From here on out, anyone wanting to do a comparison with modern-day machine guns will first have to explain this discrepancy.

[Sifright]

Another mg thread that needs to be closed and it's post count and link added to the MG discussion balance thread

This is a post to assist the mods in understanding the breadth of the problem I will be copy pasting this into older machine gun threads that did not recieve mod or dev attention so the feed back can be linked from the new thread.

[Egomane]

Sifright, one more Bump, And you'll find yourself on Mod-Preview for the rest of the day!

Closed!

Please continue MG discussions here: http://mwomercs.com/...lance-feedback/