97 replies to this topic

[Felix]

Jock Blaine, on 10 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Ok, In general I dislike the overpowered discussions. But I think this can be settled very easily.
Currently, ECM is restricted to just a few mechs (there is your first hint). If it wasn't, how many mechs would have ECM? I know all my mechs would carry it. I think most mechs would carry it. Equipment that everyone wants/needs to use=>overpowered.
It seems fairly simple to me, if you try to balance a game by reducing accessibility of a certain type of equipment or weapon to a very limited set of mechs, then that bit of equipment is overpowered. Otherwise you wouldn't have to limit its use.

Well said

[ltwally]

Butane9000, on 10 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Have you ever really encountered only 1 or 2 mechs in a game that use ECM? It isn't "broken" in any way. If you approach the situation tactically you can usually take said units out fairly quickly. I've done so in pug games. I've done it in pre-mades. ECM gets stupid when 5+ people have it on one team.

You're defining balance by how many units it takes before it becomes a problem.

I say that your definition is in its very essense WRONG.

You should define balance by its effects/effectiveness vs its cost. Cost as in weight, slots, heat, ammunition. C-Bills don't really weigh into the equation.

Measured by its weight, by the number of slots it uses, by its heat and ammuntion (1.5 tonnes, 2 slots, no heat & no ammo.), ECM is far faaaaar too powerful. It simply does too much. Nothing else comes close.

Quote

ECM has been part of the Battletech lore for awhile, and PGI did something they didn't have to.

I have no idea what you mean, unless you're agreeing that PGI added garbage to ECM that it did not have in TT. That much is true -- ECM in MW:O is waaaaay cooler than ECM in TT.

Quote

ECM Counter mode doesn't exist. In the tabletop there isn't any way to "counter" ECM with ECM. This is why ECM isn't broken when in small quantities on both teams. One unit can counter the other.

ECM in TT didn't need a counter mode. In TT, ECM only nullifies 4 specific pieces of equipment. It's quite balanced.

It wasn't until MW:O altered ECM to become its current monstrosity that they said, "oh.. we need something to counter this."

If ECM was balanced, it wouldn't need a counter.

Quote

No, my idea of balance is to go to how it was before. At least before people wouldn't all have ECM on a team because 1 ECM equipped mech could counter and stop all of theirs. Meaning if one team was only using 1, then they could counter a team using 5. Also this isn't "special equipment" it's the exact same equipment.

Your argument about countering special equipment would have been better had to used actual equipment instead of weapons like TAG, NARC or Artemis.

The concept that you need to counter ECM all by itself shows how powerful ECM is.

Requiring everyone to have ECM so that they can counter the other fellows ECM.... If you cannot grasp what a failed, unbalanced concept this is, than there isn't much hope of reaching you on an intellectual level.

No single piece of equipment should require the other team to have counters. The TT value of ECM isn't that it's awesome-sauce; it's not. The TT value of ECM is that effectively countered 4 pieces of equipment that weren't super-powered to begin with; it's value was it could counter them all in only 1.5 tonnes. TT implicitly acknowledges that nothing that weighs only 1.5 tonnes should require a special counter. Making that counter more of the same unit doesn't change that in any way.

Quote

That was merely one suggestion to balance ECM. Also your assuming that TAG will always be on another person you can't control. However with TAGs new distance of 750m I equip that on my LRM Awesome to great success.

So you believe that requiring a laser-esque weapon, which in fact uses a laser slot, to make missile weapons not wasted space is balanced? That having to repeatedly re-tag things, because LRMs take more time to hit than TAG lasts, is either fair or balanced?

People that believe that this is good or balanced just plain flabbergast me. It's like you've decided that 2+2 = 2, and refuse to believe otherwise.

Quote

I do understand the minimum range is 180m. If you read what I wrote I said I was trying to shoot his teammate who was farther then 180m. However by virtue of just being around me and having ECM he rendered my LRMs useless. I wasn't trying to shoot him as that would be a waste of ammunition.

So now LRM mechs have to have designated spotters? This is fair? And balanced?

Quote

...
Weigh 7 tons (530% increase)
Fill 4 critial slots (100% increase)

However they seem to have combined the above system with the regular Guardian ECM.

So if they made it to lore by making it weight 7 tons and take up 4 critical slots while also costing more. I believe that wouldn't be a bad way to balance it.

At 7 tonnes, it would pretty much rule out the Commando utilising it. The Raven & Cicada would have to make some serious compromises.

The Atlas... not so much.

But even then, the concept that a 7 tonne device can render you all but immune to basic sensors and missile locks....
... it's just too much of a negative effect on the game.

Also, in case you had not noticed, between the reward/repair/rearm changes and ECM, the amount of brawling has increased dramatically. Capturing is essentially a thing of the past.

I suspect -- and I could be wrong here -- that if PGI increased ECM weight to 7 tonnes, what would happen is people would drop their Commandos, Ravens and Cicadas in favour of Atlas DDC's. That's just my hunch. But I can back that up by pointing to the surge in Commandos and Ravens after ECMs arrival.

Edited by ltwally, 10 January 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[ltwally]

Big Giant Head, on 10 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Negative.
You cant put 2 or more ECMs , ECM doesn't do any dmg so it cant be compared to medium pulse laser or whatever.

Fine. Let's compare it with AMS. Would you ever consider taking AMS instead of ECM? No? Hmm.. That's a brain-scratcher.

What about Beagle. How does ECM's effect on the game compare/contrast with Beagle? ECM seems like a must-have, to the point that the number of Commandos and Ravens suddenly shot through the roof. How many people can you imagine buying a new mech just to run Beagle? Not too many, eh? Hmmm. Another brain-scratcher.

Can you name even one piece of equipment that has had as far-reaching and powerful an influence on the MW:O battlefield as ECM? And it only weighs 1.5 tonnes.

Too much. Way too much. For too little. Way too little.

Over
Powered.

Edited by ltwally, 10 January 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Jetfire]

How about we just implement the PPC EMP effect and the seismic sensors and other pilot skills that will counter ECM? These things are already in the works. BAP and NARC should not be counters to ECM. ECM makes sense in its current state, the only reason it is so feared is that it came in before the counters were in. ECM is at its peak now, it will slowly fall into balance. LRMs are already back to being very effective with a tag and you can do this easily on any number of mechs. Give it a little time before we start nerfing the core system. Also monetary adjustments are not balance.

[HighTest]

http://mwomercs.com/...x-the-ecm-then/

Or, you could just balance them out roughly on both sides...

[StalaggtIKE]

This is not specifically directed to the following guy, but instead everyone:

Jetfire, on 10 January 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

How about we just implement the PPC EMP effect and the seismic sensors and other pilot skills that will counter ECM? These things are already in the works. BAP and NARC should not be counters to ECM. ECM makes sense in its current state, the only reason it is so feared is that it came in before the counters were in. ECM is at its peak now, it will slowly fall into balance. LRMs are already back to being very effective with a tag and you can do this easily on any number of mechs. Give it a little time before we start nerfing the core system. Also monetary adjustments are not balance.

Or we could just balance ECM. It's asinine to balance the game around a passive 1.5 ton hardware. I know some of you hated missilewarrior online but, at least with LRM you have to click a button. Is it really sensible to people that one should change around their whole build just to compete against a device that requires no input from the user? In order to counter ECM, one has to:

• drop a laser to equip TAG, lowering his dps
  
• pilot one of the 4 mechs instead of a favorite build
  
• actively seek him/her out
  
• drop with lance mates

Right now we must come up with ECM busting strategies or just decide to use it. This is ECMechwarrior Online. But everything is fine because PPC will eventually receive EMP properties. Or some modules, in which one must grind for, will eventually be released. Relying on modules are just another form of monetary adjustments (xp and cbills). The tool is laughably unbalanced, winning has nothing to do with it. The way it is implemented makes it so. How are some just OK with this? Did LRM really rip you THAT big of a gaping hole?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Jetfire]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 January 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is not specifically directed to the following guy, but instead everyone:

Or we could just balance ECM. It's asinine to balance the game around a passive 1.5 ton hardware. I know some of you hated missilewarrior online but, at least with LRM you have to click a button. Is it really sensible to people that one should change around their whole build just to compete against a device that requires no input from the user? In order to counter ECM, one has to:

• drop a laser to equip TAG, lowering his dps
  
• pilot one of the 4 mechs instead of a favorite build
  
• actively seek him/her out
  
• drop with lance mates

Right now we must come up with ECM busting strategies or just use it. This is ECMechwarrior Online. But everything is fine because PPC will eventually receive EM properties. Or some modules, in which one must grind for, will eventually be released. Relying on modules are just another form of monetary adjustments (xp and cbills). The tool is laughably unbalanced, winning has nothing to do with it. The way it is implemented makes it so. How are some just OK with this?

It is E-warfare, it does zero damage. Unless your goal is just to make E-warfare background noise in the game, yes, ECM is going to be a lot for the tonnage. If we "balanced" ECM around it's tonnage and heat it would have to serve almost zero purpose or cripple the mech that carried it. Right now you can play with ECM or without it and play around it. That is how E-warfare should work, but yes, you should always have to consider it. Just like cover, you can't simply ignore it, it is a core mechanic. The fact this core mechanic resides in a peice of equipment does not change the fact it is meant to be an integral part of the game.

Adding relevant counter measures should balance out how many ECM mechs you see and already with just the TAG upgrade I see a whole lot less ECM than I used to as ECM does not stop a bullet nor does it project one.

Edited by Jetfire, 10 January 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Jetfire, on 10 January 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It is E-warfare, it does zero damage. Unless your goal is just to make E-warfare background noise in the game, yes, ECM is going to be a lot for the tonnage. If we "balanced" ECM around it's tonnage and heat it would have to serve almost zero purpose or cripple the mech that carried it. Right now you can play with ECM or without it and play around it. That is how E-warfare should work, but yes, you should always have to consider it. Just like cover, you can't simply ignore it, it is a core mechanic. The fact this core mechanic resides in a peice of equipment does not change the fact it is meant to be an integral part of the game.

Well adding ECM with the properties of Stealth Armor, Null Signature and Angel ECM was just plain lazy. Because if they had instead added all of those we would have a far more diverse E-warfare and selections of tools. Not to mention it would have been far more balanced. Right now we do not have E-warfare, it's ECM-warfare: Either you beat ECM or lose to it.

Edit: Cover was a bad example. ECM makes that no longer a core mechanic. You can just walk right out in the open with no fear of LRM to soften you up.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Jetfire, on 10 January 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Adding relevant counter measures should balance out how many ECM mechs you see and already with just the TAG upgrade I see a whole lot less ECM than I used to as ECM does not stop a bullet nor does it project one.

Balance out? As in make the teams have the same amount of ECM mechs? No. TAG definitely does not do that. I guess what you meant was limit the amount of ECM on the field. Yes, it has. But what does that tells you? Less ECM = a better game. Isn't it obvious there is a problem and ECM is at the center of it?

But back to TAG: Some players are realizing that ECM doesn't win the game for them, but only puts it in their favor. I would say the majority of players that were deterred by TAG, were mostly bad players. They are the same ones that ran out in the open and whined from dying from LRM. So, dealing with TAG turned out to be too much work. There are already a few " OMG OP TAG!" threads popping up. No the good players can still use ECM just fine. Which is why 8 vs 8 is still ECM heavy.

Quote

as ECM does not stop a bullet nor does it project one.

I say the same about TAG. Which is why I ignore it. I or my team gets TAGged and that Pug hero is getting AC fire to the face.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Befor ECM there were long range stand-offs that broke down to a brawl.
Now matches are just rush and brawl. So many people just run down the middle of river city now.

A small, light single piece of equipment that only 4 mechs out of more than 40 can use, have changed the entire game. If you don't think that is reason to adjust (just try adjusting) ECM your not bright, or you like the brawl.

Matches may have been slower befor ECM, i really would like to see the stats, but with most FPS it attracts twitch/click players that didn't like the long range battles anyways

Any what about larger maps? You need long range weapons and the ability to detect if they make larger maps.

[StalaggtIKE]

Bobzilla, on 10 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

[And] Any what about larger maps? You need long range weapons and the ability to detect if they make larger maps.

Exactly. I would love large maps, but this would be disastrous with the current ECM in place.

[StonedDead]

Butane9000, on 10 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Yes, but the true issue it seems is that if an ECM mech currently gets close enough to me even my TAG is rendered useless. That is what is getting to me.

--------------------------------

Really, because I put TAG on one of my mechs, haven't used it till then, and I can't get a lock even with TAG, no matter what the range to target. I sat out by myself and tried to lock an ECM mech from 1000m, 750m, 500m, 250m, 200m, and got no lock at all, not even at an increased lock on time. I just can't lock onto a mech with ECM period.

Edit: forgot to mention, the only way I can get lock is if a friendly with ECM counters, then I can get lock with increased lock time, unless I have TAG, then it locks at normal speed. Only when countered though.

Edited by Zekester81, 10 January 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[LynxFury]

Perhaps because it's a multi-step process. Finding the enemy, usually in some zoomed mood through visible or thermal site, tagging that enemy (already giving up 250 meters of your effective LRM range), cuing up the target (for most with the "R" key), firing the missiles, holding the tag on that same enemy all the way through their long flight...it only last a second off target; if lost your must reacquire, re-tag, and re-target, by which point the missiles are often so far off course they'll miss anyhow.

It works sort of ok if you use your own tag and LRM.

It hardly works at all if someone else is tagging because they often use it to find targets rather than tag for a teammate.

For some teams it works ok if the DC does the completely unrealistic BT thing and sends in the team's 120kph light mech pilot with phone cup dial up internet connection from the Fija Islands to dance among the enemy at top speed while keeping the tag on one mech. Usually though firing on other people's tags is the best way to waste missiles and time.

[ltwally]

Bobzilla, on 10 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Befor ECM there were long range stand-offs that broke down to a brawl.
Now matches are just rush and brawl. So many people just run down the middle of river city now.

A small, light single piece of equipment that only 4 mechs out of more than 40 can use, have changed the entire game. If you don't think that is reason to adjust (just try adjusting) ECM your not bright, or you like the brawl.

Matches may have been slower befor ECM, i really would like to see the stats, but with most FPS it attracts twitch/click players that didn't like the long range battles anyways

Any what about larger maps? You need long range weapons and the ability to detect if they make larger maps.

I completely agree that this game has devolved into nothing more than short-range slug-fests.

However, to be completely fair, ECM isn't the only cause of this.

We also need to take into account the upheaval of the reward and repair/rearm system(s).

• The rewards for capturing are now even more pathetic, and the only way to make a decent profit is to do lots of damage and get some kills. Capture winnings do not even begin to compete with winnings from a good brawl.
  
• This is exacerbated by the removal of repair/rearm fees; there's no incentive to not brawl it up.

So, we've got ECM which largely removes the use of Artillery and allows units to just charge forward in the open, getting to brawling range as quickly as possible. And, then our financial system has been modified to make brawling the best way to make a profit. One good brawl brings in as much as 2 or 3 captures.

Whole game has gone downhill rather drastically since December. PGI's heaping bad decisions on top of bad equipment.

[drinniol]

I don't have any worries that the ECM will be sorted. All other flavour of the months have been.

Gauss was sorted. DHS was sorted. LRMs were sorted. Streakcats were sorted (funny enough with ECM). Artemis was sorted. ECM had the rotten luck of coming in just before the holidays.

If the lights could be reliably hit with direct fire then there would be the answer to the current state of ECM. Or once a module that limits/reduces the effectiveness comes in then it would cease to be FotM. Hell once any new system comes in I imagine Tolkien pretending to be an investigative journo again and spamming his HARD HITTING QUESTIONS!!!!

[ltwally]

drinniol, on 11 January 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I don't have any worries that the ECM will be sorted. All other flavour of the months have been.

Gauss was sorted. DHS was sorted. LRMs were sorted. Streakcats were sorted (funny enough with ECM). Artemis was sorted. ECM had the rotten luck of coming in just before the holidays.

True. All true.

However, a (very) good question is: why do we have to be put through this kind of thing in the first place? Why does PGI not bring in new equipment in a lower-powered state? Why upset the ecosystem / balance so badly when bringing out new equipment?

It's illogical -- doing so does not improve player experience, does not incite people to want to purchase this game, does, in fact, drive people away.

It would be quite simple to bring things out in an underpowered state. New items would get plenty of use, initially, just because they're new. That would give PGI the information and feedback they need to improve the equipment. And this process would not wreck what's already in place.

They could argue that they're in "beta". But that argument gets stale very quickly when they have paying customers. This is not how you treat paying customers. Not if you expect them to keep paying.

Quote

Streakcats were sorted (funny enough with ECM).

It isn't the StreakCat that is the problem; it's large numbers of S-SRM tubes that is the problem. I'm given to understand that there is a fix for this in the works -- opening up S-SRM to hit limbs as well as torso. Perhaps this will fix the problem... at least until the arrival of S-SRM-4 and S-SRM-6.

Quote

If the lights could be reliably hit with direct fire then there would be the answer to the current state of ECM.

Netcode isn't what's wrong with ECM. ECM is what's wrong with ECM. More specifically, killing basic sensors/comms & missile locks, on top of countering Artemis, Beagle & Narc like it's supposed to. This is simply too much power for such a small item.

Edited by ltwally, 12 January 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Conn Man]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 January 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

• within 180m disrupt bubble does the following to enemies:
  
  • does not block TAG, however none of your allies will see your designated target.

That means it blocks TAG since you would be inside LRM minimum range anyway.

I want ECM to be in the game, but I want it to be fixed.

[Stormwolf]

I'm quite baffled on how ECM was implemented in the game. In TT it only blocks C3, BAP, Artemis and NARC, in MWO it blocks nearly everything.

Really, what the hell were they thinking?

[Sandslice]

Jetfire, on 10 January 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It is E-warfare, it does zero damage. Unless your goal is just to make E-warfare background noise in the game, yes, ECM is going to be a lot for the tonnage. If we "balanced" ECM around it's tonnage and heat it would have to serve almost zero purpose or cripple the mech that carried it. Right now you can play with ECM or without it and play around it. That is how E-warfare should work,

The same goes for active probe, though: for the same weight and space, it does virtually nothing, and is soft-countered by ECM even at infinite range... AND hard-countered by ECM within the ECM bubble. A functional EloKa system should not be completely dominated by one piece of kit, especially one that also gives actual combat defences.

[StUffz]

Sandslice, on 12 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

The same goes for active probe, though: for the same weight and space, it does virtually nothing, and is soft-countered by ECM even at infinite range... AND hard-countered by ECM within the ECM bubble. A functional EloKa system should not be completely dominated by one piece of kit, especially one that also gives actual combat defences.

Well it does something:

• 25% increased sensor range (Great for LRM Boating)
  
• 25% decreased target level acquisition time (Great for LRM Boating)
  
• allows targeting of unpowered 'Mechs within 120m (Good for scouts)

What it does not is detect ECM bubbles, where I think it should be added. This should be added to get canon with TT and to get somewhat of a passive counter to ECM.