48 replies to this topic

[Sayyid]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 January 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

That would be disappointing Sayyid!

What I have found is unless you have the power of millions of dollars behind you, and I am talking on the scale of Blizzard, EA, Sony Online Entertainment, you wont see a project this big get completed, and if it is it wont be done well.

Lets look at games that have anything on the scale of Mechwarrior Online. Which is looking to have a world conquest system and factions, not one but 5+ and over 20+ different mechs to use.

-Planetside1 or 2, are on that scale but have 3 factions, huge maps, and several vehicles and weapons. But has the backing of SOE and cost in the lines of MILLIONS of USD, and has a programming team that is in the dozens.

-WWII Online, By Cornered Rats Studios, they had Strategy First as their backer, and they pulled out during beta, forcing the game out early. CRS had plans on a massive WWII game set in northern France in May of 1940. They on launch 12 years ago had maybe a dozen vehicles and 3 infantry types. The game had and still has quite a few bugs, and is being kept running by shear force of will by CRS.

-MPBT:3025 by EA Online, HUGE idea for the time, had dozens of programmers, and a huge chunk of money thrown at it. EA killed it because it wouldnt be profitable for the cost they were putting into it. (Which many of use thought was Bullsh...)

Thats just three games that are along the same lines as MWO, each with different levels of funding and commitment by the developers.

As you can see unless you have had millions of dollars thrown at it with team of dozens if not hundreds of programmers its just not going to happen.

[Joseph Mallan]

i saw that one video trying to explain your point quite well. I do hope the income from our "micro transactions" can help offset this.

[zhajin]

I agree 100% with op, mw and bt are about more than just arena battles. And this game is seriously lacking in true depth, that an online game need to be successful.

To those saying we are just testing, this game has been in some form of development for 4+ years, its been in beta for 8 months and open betat for almost 3 months. At what point do we get to stop just testing? at best we are looking at a new map in a month or so and possibly another a couple months after that. community warefar, the thing that will be the real depth of the game, is months if not years away.

at this rate the game is going to die long before they can implement the "real" game....

[Justgreen]

+1 to the OP

This has been running trough my mind lately.

I understand that in order to accomplish a huge games, huge financial ressources are required....

But Since the game is already open to the public as beta, I fear that it will never be able to pass that stage because by the time MWO is a game, it will already be an old one... and people will have already moved on to another game...

I hate to be pessimistic... there may not be an incentive big enough for a company keep developping a game that is already bringing revenue... Except maybe the passion the Devs might have to the MechWarrior topic...

In order to achieve great things, great risks have to be taken ... Sometimes it works and the world get to see a masterpiece. Other times it doesn't and whoever worked on the project fall into oblivion...

Let's hope the company is ready to take that risk... and that the project is going to work

[Carnivoris]

You're playing a beta. You're not playing a finished game. No one ever said you were. Yes, you're playing the mechanics. You should be providing feedback to the devs about those mechanics. What works? What doesn't? What needs improvement?

That's your job. PGI is developing the rest of the game. When the game is finished, it will no longer be beta. There's a lot left to come and it'll change MWO quite a bit. Community Warfare (I never did get an official response on whether or not that was still in the timeline) will expand the game to include battles over territories waged between factions, clans, and mercs.

I'd say give it another year before we start seeing anything relating to that appear in the game. Until then, go blow up some mechs. If that's not enough to keep your attention then that's your problem. You're not playing a finished game. Everyone here needs to realize that.

[Sidekick]

Carnivoris, on 10 January 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

You're playing a beta. You're not playing a finished game. No one ever said you were. Yes, you're playing the mechanics. You should be providing feedback to the devs about those mechanics. What works? What doesn't? What needs improvement?

Seriously... how are we or the develeopers supposed to learn what works and what needs improvement, if we are just fingering around with the mechanics but don´t touch the gameplay itself with a ten foot pole? Sure, more mechs and finely balanced weapons are nice, but that doesn´t contribute to the game itself much.
Although I have to agree that "Warhammer online" sufferd greatly from balancing issues and died because the devs couldn´t get a grip on the issue.

Quote

I'd say give it another year before we start seeing anything relating to that appear in the game. Until then, go blow up some mechs. If that's not enough to keep your attention then that's your problem. You're not playing a finished game. Everyone here needs to realize that.

A year? for any core gameplay elements to be implemented?
I hate to bring the news to you, but PGI doesn´t have a year. Q1+Q2 of 2013 will make or break MWO, if the core gameplay isn´t implemented SOON, this porject will suffer a horrible fate.

Edited by Sidekick, 10 January 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Thatnanoguy]

The OP reminded me why this game will always fail in comparison to Chromehounds imo...

[Sidekick]

Sim-like focus is fine, but sims live from scenarios. A against B is pretty static, and I am getting the impression that the gaming expirience is developing a certain "deja vú" syndrome. Because there is nothing to simulate but clashing mechs.

[Carnivoris]

Sidekick, on 10 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Seriously... how are we or the develeopers supposed to learn what works and what needs improvement, if we are just fingering around with the mechanics but don´t touch the gameplay itself with a ten foot pole? Sure, more mechs and finely balanced weapons are nice, but that doesn´t contribute to the game itself much.
Although I have to agree that "Warhammer online" sufferd greatly from balancing issues and died because the devs couldn´t get a grip on the issue.

Without proper mechanics (balance, implementation of BT gear, etc), the full game would be even MORE broken than what we have now is. You have to get the basics right before you can move on to larger projects.

Sidekick, on 10 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

A year? for any core gameplay elements to be implemented?
I hate to bring the news to you, but PGI doesn´t have a year. Q1+Q2 of 2013 will make or break MWO, if the core gameplay isn´t implemented SOON, this porject will suffer a horrible fate.

Glad you can predict the future. We'll start seeing news feeds come in about mysterious, powerful mechs attacking the periphery in March. Go read some lore. It took about a year for the clan conflict to really get into the IS proper. In the meantime, we'll be getting new mechs, new maps, and new gear. Calm down.

I swear, this forum is populated by the most knee-jerk, ADHD people I've ever seen. Go take your Ritalin.

[Mercules]

The board game version Battletech was a somewhat interesting occasional diversion we played from time to time.... Until someone broke down and decided to make a campaign out of it. At that point when our decisions started affecting future games/battles and there was something beyond if we destroyed the other mechs or captured this building on the map.... I was invested.

That is what MWO lacks at this moment, is that investment. That is what Community Warfare is supposed to bring for most of us. Right now we are playing exactly like a "We have Saturday afternoon to blow.... how about a quick 2 map game of Battletech?" We drop onto this small map, with limited reason to be there or be fighting, fight to destroy the enemy and/or capture/destroy/protect something, and when it is all done it didn't matter.

When capturing the ammo dump intact meant we would have enough to keep advancing into enemy territory and failing to capture it meant we might have to wait for supply lines to be established and maybe even be overrun.... Yes it is still just a match and game, but this match meant next match could be more interesting. I mean I remember debating about the ammo dump and if we could save it or if we should blow it and hopefully take some of the enemy with it or at least deny them the resources....

Having that sort of persistence meant something and while MWO will never have it to that detail, having some would tie more people into the "game" than any weapon balance.

[Jetfire]

The ultimate goal is Community Warfare. What we are doing now is testing the engine and balancing the elements that will one day be pulled in to CW. The pug matches and random drops will be the just for kicks part of MWO. CW is what will draw and keep the serious players long term. Eventually a Solaris game mode and possibly longer down the line single player games will be integrated as well.

Edited by Jetfire, 10 January 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Mizore]

Community warfare the ulitmate goal? Really?

The only thing community warfare changes is that we'll get a bonus for our factions with some advantages on top... but the gameplay mechanic stays the same... there'll be the same maps and game modes that we have now!

And honestly, I'm a little bit disappointed by the conquest mode, the maps are too small and we need something like small bases that can be captured with some bonuses like a rearm or repair bay (maybe control over some sensors) like it is in MWLL... this would be nice and fun to play.

Or some other game modes like the one team has to defend a big base and the other team hast to conquer it (e.g. with some turret controls and sensor towers to capture or destroy).

At the moment it's all about killing the enemy... during the closed beta at least capturing was a real alternative instead of just killing everyone and it was really exciting, because sometimes you just won because someone got out of the capture zone and collided with the intruder to bring him down before he reaches the capture zone, what would have been a defeat... damn there were some really close matches and it was really awesome if you had success with this.

[Wun]

Sidekick, on 10 January 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Assault is no game at all, it´s a loose method of team deathmatch with a bailout possibility.

Yet World of Tanks and League of Legends have been huge success with nothing but one gameplay mode and a handful of maps. I am not sure that your desire for the game, and what Pirhana needs to do to keep the game alive and growing over the next year are compatible. Once the core mechanics are worked out, then new gameplay modes can be added.

Anything 8v8 is just trial stuff for mechanics and stability testing. The game wont be a "full game" until they implement 12v12 on larger maps (currently in testing according to Garth). Proper mech missions (Defend the Facility, Escort the Convoy, Scout Enemy Defenses, etc) would be great but require groups, which eliminates a large percentage of the playerbase immediately. That sort of thing needs to wait until after a basic land capture metagame (similar to what World of Tanks does) is in place this spring.

Edited by Wun, 10 January 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Sidekick]

Carnivoris, on 10 January 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Glad you can predict the future. We'll start seeing news feeds come in about mysterious, powerful mechs attacking the periphery in March. Go read some lore. It took about a year for the clan conflict to really get into the IS proper. In the meantime, we'll be getting new mechs, new maps, and new gear. Calm down.

I swear, this forum is populated by the most knee-jerk, ADHD people I've ever seen. Go take your Ritalin.

So you are getting what I am talking abaut but you choose to be a jerk abaut it... funny. I know that the Invasion is supposed to happen.... now. But that makes it even tougher to think of the concepts that aren´t in the game yet and haven´t been tested by any player. What you are suggesting is that the clan invasion will magically summon many new gameplay elements (not just more mechs and "premium/clan" guns) that will instantly improve the game.

Another point: Mechwarrior games are usually featuring combined arms situations. Vehicles, arerial support, installations. This diversity of threats was what justified the combination of different weapon systems on a mech, since boats could easily be counterd.This aspect is missing as a whole and it greatly changes the way mechs are outfittet and used on the battlefield. It is no wonder that most mechs on the servers are customized beyond any fluff... because they aren´t used in a classic battletech conflict situation.

[Mizore]

Wun, on 10 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Yet World of Tanks and League of Legends have been huge success with nothing but one gameplay mode and a handful of maps. I am not sure that your desire for the game, and what Pirhana needs to do to keep the game alive and growing over the next year are compatible. Once the core mechanics are worked out, then new gameplay modes can be added.

Anything 8v8 is just trial stuff for mechanics and stability testing. The game wont be a "full game" until they implement 12v12 on larger maps (currently in testing according to Garth). Proper mech missions (Defend the Facility, Escort the Convoy, Scout Enemy Defenses, etc) would be great but probably need to wait until after a basic land capture metagame (similar to what World of Tanks does) is in place this spring.

But it's a little bit different in LoL... it's no stupid TDM, there are so many other things you have to do to win like push lines, defend towers, slaying the dragon or gather the red & blue/baron buff... you can do lot's of stuff on the map.

Now tell me what you can do in MWO? Yeah... nothing else than kill all the enemies... yes, you CAN capture in conquest mode, but there's absolutely no need to do this.

Edited by Mizore, 10 January 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[B0oN]

Gentlemen, does anyone still clearly know what the words "BETA" imply (open, closed, hullaballu, wutever) ?
This is aimed at some of our younger guys, that havent been playing as long as some others.

The thing you, him, her, basically all of us are doing right now would be "normally" called internal alpha test.

Get used to being a testpilot and use your privileged position to get PGI where "WE" wanna have their product

That´s all, proceed with your doings.

[Mizore]

Awww common... take of your pink sunglasses and wake up!!!

Yes, there are small things that'll change but that doesn't mean the game will make a 180°-turn!

Every "BETA" has it's end and this one is not far away!
The current game modes are kinda boring and nothing else... it's all about TDM and there's certainly not enough time left to change this fact.

[Orzorn]

Perhaps then we should ask ourselves how we make these game modes more like a game:

I think Conquest's faster resource collection rate was a good step towards that. You don't have to fight enemies in Conquest, you can always run away (although pubs seem to believe otherwise, and tend to fight to the death). With the faster timer, you're punished more for not being more aggressive with point captures.

So far, almost every Conquest this patch has ended in a resource victory, however, its usually only one mech that either is skulking around alive, or we left it alive because we get more cash for a full 750 resources than just for the last (usually light) mech kill.

Perhaps they could increase resource collection rate even more?

[Pariah Devalis]

While I am enjoying MWO tremendously, this is a really well thought out post. You differentiate between game mechanics and a game by setting a definition and giving an example. I would argue only in that a deathmatch mode like assault, the game is in play, but the game is ludicrously one dimensional.

It is a lack of complex objectives and scenarios that is what appears to be your issue with the game, and to a good extent I agree with you. We have optional basecap objective mechanics with an optional, but preferred, annihilation objective. In the case of conquest, it could probably be aided somewhat by making the payoff for a points based victory even higher, putting the focus on capturing points over the killing, but that can just as easily turn into a baseswap situation.

In the case of assault, it needs, NEEDS to be asymmetric. There needs to be a defending team and an attacking team, otherwise it goes back to a baseswap or annihilate situation. Simultaneously, a shorter game length, perhaps 10 minutes instead of 15, will force the offensive players to try to push into the enemy base to capture it within the limited time allotted. Finally, for the attackers, there needs to be ample reward for winning by capture, as opposed to winning by annihilation. Defenders could then win by timeout or by annihilation.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 January 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[MrMasakari]

You are right OP, We are the testers. But I dare say it. Its because its Beta. The engine is still being optimized and weapons are being changed and re balanced. And sadly it is necessary. I'm not going to patronize you but An example is the net-code. The net-code is still bad enough to put people off playing, I very often get annoyed when a 'mech moving fast enough becomes shielded from direct hits to itself due to its hit box lagging behind etc.

I went through this stage a month or two back. You get bored. And I think most will tbh because we are not quite at the Game stage yet. But of course every beta ends eventually. Community warfare will help to bring the game to life a bit more as battles will have a bit more meaning and help immerse you into the end product more as what you will do will actually be impacting other players.

All the wonderful features will come on top of that eventually whether it be PvE content with storylines (Very Far down the line were talking), Clan invasion etc, Competitive leagues. But only once the foundations, the engine and the mechanics we are currently playing are ready to be built ontop of. Which sadly they aren't atm.

Edited by Artaire, 10 January 2013 - 04:49 PM.