30 replies to this topic

[Fallout23]

Ok, me and the friends I play with all migrated over from another game and are new to MWO. We were discussing the mechanics and opinions of how different weapons work in the game. I'm getting to the point of not wanting to slot energy weapons unless its a filler to round out or fill in weight in a build. The discussion turned to why it seems that energy weapons don't have the same killing power as ballistic or even missiles do. I guess my question is this:

Does energy weapons affect internal structure different than ballistic and missiles?

My personal favorite weapons are ac/20 and uac/5's. I love an ac/20's ability to finish off targets and uac/5's sustained deeps. I've tried to match the kind of killing power I have with my ac/20 by matching up a set of ppc's to match its burst damage, but I never get the same results. I can strip armor off of targets pretty well, but I never kill them as often as I do with an ac/20 round. (I do know of there minimum range as well). One of my favorite builds is my 2xac/20 k2. When I try to mimic its 40point burst with 4xppc's it just doesn't work out the same. So what gives? If anything, 4xppcs actually doubles the chance to crit and blow up components, but even with what should be extra crit damage from ammo or gauss rifles, it still is lackluster compared to my ballistics. If energy is better for melting armor, but ballistic is better at destroying internals, this would all make sense. I haven't ever heard or read anyone stating this though.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Damage is damage, no difference in types as such.
in theory since lasers do their damage with small portions very fast (akin to the machine gun - the projectile travel time), they should have the chance of doing multiple small crits when hitting internals.


weapon effectiveness all comes down to piloting skill, team work and situational awareness in the end.

Edited by H8Bitter, 10 January 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Stingz]

H8Bitter, on 10 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Damage is damage, no difference in types as such.
in theory since lasers do their damage with small portions very fast (akin to the machine gun - the projectile travel time), they should have the chance of doing multiple small crits when hitting internals.


weapon effectiveness all comes down to piloting skill, team work and situational awareness in the end.

That, and nothing beats firing an AC/10 or /20 into internals. AC/10 always kills whatever it crits, and AC/20 flat-out tears off the limb.

[Fallout23]

Thanks for the response.

Well damage is damage is kind of over simplified don't you think? Your very post points out the fact that lasers do their damage differently than other types of weapons meaning there damage differs in some way than other types of weapons. I understand the theory that 20 points being soaked up by one section of mech is the same no matter what source it's coming from, but I'm saying that my perception of that doesn't seem to match in the real world vs what it should be on paper. I definitely take k2 running two ac/20's more seriously than a mech running 4xppcs. In theory, the 4x ppc should be even more devastating (unless I'm less than 90m from him) than the ac/20 build due to twice as much 10 point (which will instakill anything that can blow up in one crit) crit chances per shot, but its not (IMO).

Again I say this is "my perception". I have no scientific evidence to back it up, but the people I run with do all seem to agree.

Also, since its my perception of how the different weapons compare to each other due to my experience using them, piloting skill and situational awareness are a constant in the equation of one vs the other since its only my experience with them that I'm referring to.

[Stingz]

Fallout23, on 10 January 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Thanks for the response.

Well damage is damage is kind of over simplified don't you think? Your very post points out the fact that lasers do their damage differently than other types of weapons meaning there damage differs in some way than other types of weapons. I understand the theory that 20 points being soaked up by one section of mech is the same no matter what source it's coming from, but I'm saying that my perception of that doesn't seem to match in the real world vs what it should be on paper. I definitely take k2 running two ac/20's more seriously than a mech running 4xppcs. In theory, the 4x ppc should be even more devastating (unless I'm less than 90m from him) than the ac/20 build due to twice as much 10 point (which will instakill anything that can blow up in one crit) crit chances per shot, but its not (IMO).

Again I say this is "my perception". I have no scientific evidence to back it up, but the people I run with do all seem to agree.

Also, since its my perception of how the different weapons compare to each other due to my experience using them, piloting skill and situational awareness are a constant in the equation of one vs the other since its only my experience with them that I'm referring to.

Very hard to fire 4 PPCs without shutting down, since MWO external "DHS" is (1.4).

A Clan Hellstar with true DHS will teach you to fear PPCs. x4 Clan ERPPC(15 damage each), and fire all of them with no overheat.

Edited by Stingz, 10 January 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[Fallout23]

Yeah, my stalker can get two alphas off before having to fire two at a time or take a step back to cool off. Again though, I'm not talking about how high my damage numbers are or how often I can fire but how effective those shots are. Shots on an immobile mech that I feel my ac/20's would normally kill just doesn't happen as often with my ppc's. even worse than that is my laser builds. Dumping 5 large lasers into the backplate of a still atlas should do more damage than my ppc or ac/20 builds do, but it just doesn't seem to make as big of a dent.

As I said, I have no prior xp with mw, so while I have kind of heard about clan equipment, I have no idea what any of it is. A 15point erppc sounds amazing, but with the current heat mechanics of ppc's, I can't see them balancing out against ppc's without giving up a crapload of heat per shot.

On a different note, as long as we're talking clan gear, can I assume different clans have different themes upgraded gear? I.e. snipers, armor, lazors, etc, or it all the same between clans? It seems like it would be a shame to be the same, but a heck of a lot easier to balance out the game.

Edited by Fallout23, 10 January 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Fallout23]

I realize its hard to argue with someone's opinion when they have no evidence but their pov to argue with, so I thank you for having the conversation. I guess if the answer is indeed no to the question, does anyone else feel the same way I do about energy weapons? The crowd of ppl I see that love there ML hunchies I'm sure don't....lol

[Barghest Whelp]

Hey there.

I totally agree with you, AC20 is the maximum awesome you can attain in this game. The only thing that could possibly beat it for my personal liking would be the UAC20, but that may not be available for a while.

That being said, it's fairly obvious that you've never stood on the wrong end of a 6 PPC stalker before. Trust me, that alpha really hurts, IF you survive. Now, part of the problem with PPC is that their range is rather limited. Sure, they reach further than an AC20, but they also have a minimum range. The ER PPC's just generate way too much heat, so that rules them out as well.

Now, the advantage beam weapons have is that their damage increases with range, where the AC's decrease range with firepower. A couple of large lasers can be your best friend in situations where you are stuck in a trench war, where you can't leave cover due to enemy LRM coverage. An added advantage is NO AMMO! And even though I pack loads of ammo that usually lasts the whole match, I ran out a few times, and those times I was really thankful for my lasers.

Of course, if there was a mech in which I could field nothing but AC's and SRM's, I would totally do it. SRM6's are total overkill badass.

[Fallout23]

Barghest Whelp, on 10 January 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Hey there.

I totally agree with you, AC20 is the maximum awesome you can attain in this game. The only thing that could possibly beat it for my personal liking would be the UAC20, but that may not be available for a while.

That being said, it's fairly obvious that you've never stood on the wrong end of a 6 PPC stalker before. Trust me, that alpha really hurts, IF you survive. Now, part of the problem with PPC is that their range is rather limited. Sure, they reach further than an AC20, but they also have a minimum range. The ER PPC's just generate way too much heat, so that rules them out as well.

Now, the advantage beam weapons have is that their damage increases with range, where the AC's decrease range with firepower. A couple of large lasers can be your best friend in situations where you are stuck in a trench war, where you can't leave cover due to enemy LRM coverage. An added advantage is NO AMMO! And even though I pack loads of ammo that usually lasts the whole match, I ran out a few times, and those times I was really thankful for my lasers.

Of course, if there was a mech in which I could field nothing but AC's and SRM's, I would totally do it. SRM6's are total overkill badass.

Wait, lasers GAIN damage as they travel? I've never heard this before. How exactly does that work? Does a medium at point blank range fire less than 5damage and then it works up to 5 damage as it approaches 270m? (It's listed range)

As far a 6xppc build is concerned, yes it is deadly, but you are no longer comparing apples to apples. Can you imagine the devastation a 3xac/20 build would incur? Both do 60 damage, but I bet one would be a lot more feared than the other.

Disregard: I misunderstood what you meant by gains distance. Re-read it and realized what you meant

[ICEFANG13]

No they don't gain damage.

While I agree that ballistics of the same caliber are more dangerous of the same energy weapon (ie, the smallest real ballistic, A/C-2 vs the Small Laser). However, a Small Laser weights .5 tons, and an A/C-2, is 6+1 ton of ammo.

There's a good reason you see many heavier mechs have at least one ballistic, and a good reason that more than 3 is really hard to pull off (heck only 2 mechs can carry 4, and one of them can't do it well). They are heavy.

Ballistics biggest advantage is that they do the damage "NOW" while lasers require more constant aim. Ton for ton, lasers are by far more dangerous, but require different aiming skills (aim constantly over a quick aim). Laser builds are strong, hardly worthless.

OP, it sounds like you found a weapon you prefer. Trust me, all the groups of weapons have roles and ups and downs. Use ballistics because you like them

[Fallout23]

Was I that obvious...lol

Yeah I do prefer them, but my question is an honest question and not a ballistics are OP or a energy is underpowered thread. I've been playing the game just long enough to want to learn the mechanics of how it all works together now.

The theory me and another fleetmate came up with is maybe energy is better for melting armor, and ballistic damage is better at blowing up internals but is weaker against armor. Tbh, I kind of like the idea of weapons being a paper-rock-scissors against different parts of your mech like that vs just plain damage. i believe It encourages bringing multiple types of weapons within a teams makeup to maximize a full teams potential.

As it is, the consensus is that is not the case at all. I appreciate the clarification. If damage is just damage, I still think something is definitely not quite right with energy vs ballistic, but with only my pov to stand on, I'll just have to accept it and like you said, just run my favorite type.

[LynxFury]

The damage is damage, but

The lasers are segmented over their firing time... so a medium laser does 5 damage over 1 second split into 10 different segments of 0.5 damage each. And of course they hit where ever the crosshair is pointed for each segment--so if it crosses a center torso and a side torso, it will do proportional damage to each. (I was delighted to see MWO get this one right!)

Ballistic and the PPCs do single impact point damage. They have travel time, so don't hit what what your cross hairs are on unless you and the target are standing still.

For best effect, decide on the target section and hold the crosshair through the laser shot. The travel weapons require compensating lead and are less likely to be as precise against a specific parts of the enemy mech.

Both types have significant netcode lag/lead as well. But I'll mention it because it translates into different tactics for fighting laggy mechs. The ballistic because it does single impact damage must estimate the lead+lag and will most likely either die with the enemy undamaged or destroy the enemy in a dramatic pop. If a laser has trouble finding the right lead+lag, they can simply fire the beam well in front of the enemy and let them laser themselves as they cross. The laser tactic works particularly well if equipped with large lasers and the enemy has one critical section--see an already nearly destroyed leg, just plant the laser and let him leg himself.

(And because it might add clarity to the ECM discussions, this laser tactic has been almost entirely removed by lack of targeting data.)

Edited by LynxFury, 10 January 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[Koniving]

I'll address this one subject at a time.

Fallout23, on 10 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Does energy weapons affect internal structure different than ballistic and missiles?

No. They have the same effect.

Fallout23, on 10 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

One of my favorite builds is my 2xac/20 k2. When I try to mimic its 40point burst with 4xppc's it just doesn't work out the same.

It takes 4 PPCs, 4 ER PPCs, or 4 Large Pulse Lasers to equal the same damage. PPCs need a slight lead, but not much. Effects vary.


I'll hash out the specifics...
Ac-2 does 2 damage instantly per shot.
Small laser does 3 damage over the course of 1 second.
Small pulse does 3 over the course of 1/2 second.
AC-5 does 5 damage instantly per shot.
Medium laser does 5 damage over the course of 1 second.
Medium pulse laser does 5 damage over the course of 1/2 second.
UAC-5 does 5 damage instantly per shot. (Fast firing rate)
Large Laser does 9 damage over 1 second.
AC-10 does 10 damage instantly (slow firing rate)
PPC does 10 damage instantly (90 meter minimum, 540 maximum effective)
ER PPC does 10 damage instantly (no minimum, something like 900 maximum effective.)
Large Pulse Laser does 10 damage over 1/2 second.
Gauss Rifle does 15 damage instantly.
AC-20 does 20 damage instantly.

Unlike normal projectiles, PPC starts "slow" and accelerates to Gauss Rifle speed.

Ballistics deal their damage instantly but suffer slow recycle rates and if you don't lead them, can miss frequently.
Energy deal their damage over the times of 1/2 to 1 second with exception of PPCs and need to be held. Their damage spreads if you can't keep the beam on a specific component.

People like the AC-20 because of the slight explosive 'spread'.
PPCs also appear to suffer a slight "explosive spread." Lowers their direct damage if this is true.


For PPC: Skip to 4:52 for an effective 4x PPC alpha strike.

A much more proper energy variant of the AC-20 catapult

(recorded prior to speed tweak). Please check out that one's description as it lists "all" the pros and cons of both the energy and ballistic versions of the "AC-20 Catapult."

I'm sure you don't need video of ballistics weapons.

Remember: AC-2 is less than a small laser (but much better range and faster), AC-5 is the same as a medium laser with more range and same firing rate.

Edited by Koniving, 10 January 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Psikez]

As theres some rather inaccurate information floating above me I'll leave this here

http://mwomercs.com/...s-excel-inside/

And a mech builder

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

Ballistics do half damage at twice their effective range reducing to 0 at 3x their effective range

Lasers do half damage at 1.5x their effect range reducing to 0 at 2x their effective range

Edited by Psikez, 10 January 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Fallout23]

Thanx for that response koniving. Most of it isnt new to me, but the fact that ppc changes speed mid trajectory and ac/20 has explosive (splash?) type damage is. Are you saying that ac/20 spread damage when they hit? If so, how is it calculated?

[Fallout23]

Psikez, on 10 January 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

As theres some rather inaccurate information floating above me I'll leave this here

http://mwomercs.com/...s-excel-inside/

And a mech builder

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

Ballistics do half damage at twice their effective range reducing to 0 at 3x their effective range

Lasers do half damage at 1.5x their effect range reducing to 0 at 2x their effective range

Oh trust me, I've stared at both of those links for many an hour now. Smurfy has saved me millions of credits...

Edited by Fallout23, 10 January 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[Koniving]

More specifically, I'm saying that there are claims that the "splash" sphere of the AC-20 can deal damage even on a miss. I don't know how it is calculated sadly, but as Shaded from this video would tell you (AC-20 catapult and SRM A1 are the only things he uses), he loves using AC-20 on lights "Because you don't have to hit them. When they run towards you just hit the ground in front of them and they just explode." I can only partially verify it (sometimes it deals damage to a stationary target when impacting near, but sometimes it doesn't), but I will tell you from the big sphere-shaped explosion from impact it seems reasonably logical.

The other things to note: AC-20 is the only projectile that appears to "drop" when fired at long distance.
AC-20 and AC-10 both appear to have large explosive spheres, however AC-20 is the only one reported to damage even without direct impact (by reported, I mean claimed to, implied to, or otherwise shown to do splash damage since June 23rd 2012 [my beta-testing start date] within the forums, chat, or otherwise).

Some AC-20 love in an 8vs8 matchup against another premade. 4 AC-20 Catapults against an ECM heavy team.

(Skip to 3:30 to start at the fighting; check out that insta-kill on the Raven 3-L!)

Edited by Koniving, 10 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[Psikez]

I will confirm SRMs do small amounts of splash, you can experience this by getting right next to someone and firing, you'll see yourself take a bit of damage.

I have never noted any kind of splash with an AC20. Generally when it appears you have a hit on a clear miss on your screen you're hitting where the mech actually is on the server rather than the erroneous area thats reported by your client

[Pariah Devalis]

There are some confusing choices of words being used here. Let me try and clarify a couple points.

All ballistic weapons actual max range is 3x listed, doing zero damage at 3x listed and full damage up to the listed range.
All energy weapons actual max range is 2x listed, doing zero damage at 2x listed and full damage up to the listed range.
All missile weapons self destruct at maximum listed range, and LRMs have a minimum range of 170 meters. If they hit someone within 170 meters they will do zero damage. SRMs have no minimum range, but do have a small amount of splash damage.

PPC do not change velocity during travel. They move, from start to finish, at 2000 meters per second. However, standard PPCs have a minimum range of 90 meters. They do full damage at 90 and no damage at 0, linearly scaling up in damage as they go. ERPPC, in addition to having additional range (thus the Extended Range moniker) also do not have a minimum range. The tradeoff is a boatload of heat. Both the current PPC and ERPPC do 10 damage and, for all intents and purposes, act as an AC/10 when it actually hits a target. However, the projectile travels much faster. Heat, not ammo, becomes the limiting factor when firing these.

Lasers are damage over time weapons. The tradeoff is they are hitscan, meaning you point at it and it hits it immediately. Unlike ballistics or PPC, which have a travel time from click to hit, lasers will hit immediately. This allows for easier accurate hits to specific locations. They are also generally lighter then ballistics, which makes them fantastic secondary weapons. That is not to say they do not make for excellent primary weapons, too, but you need to be able to hold the beam on the part you want to destroy for most or all of the beam's duration. Think of lasers as the surgical scalpel of MWO.

Pulse Lasers work like regular lasers, except instead of doing damage over the entire length of the beam, it packages the damage into three bursts. Each burst does 1/3 of the beam's total damage per pulse. This is an easier weapon to accurately hit with since the odds of 'smearing' the beam are lower and the on target damage registration is done faster due to the solid packets of damage hitting at once. The downside of these is drastically reduced range and greatly increased heatload.

Gauss are odd ballistic weapons because they are the only ballistic weapons whose ammo cannot explode. However, they are also the only ballistic weapons which the gun itself CAN and WILL explode if damaged.


Edit:

And about your clan related question, the Clans are a separate faction in the BT lore. You have the Inner Sphere Great Houses, Mercenary units, Pirates, and then you have the Clans which, though human, are artificially grown and have been living in a distant part of galaxy unbeknownst to the rest of humanity. Each clan has their own habits and things they are well known for. Some are known for their science and technology, others for their merchant caste, others for their naval and space capability, etc.

For example, my favorites, the Nova Cats, are known for their accuracy and preference for energy based weapons. That is not to say energy weapons are only used by the Nova Cats. It is just a preference and proficiency that happens to be what they are known for. All other clans use energy weapons to a greater or lesser extent.

Really, the important differences between the individual clans is their background and mentality. Crusaders verses Wardens. How they handle interactions with the different castes or non-Clanners. How open to change or firm in their beliefs they are. Basically, they differ for the same reasons all the nations on Earth differ. After all, they are only human.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 January 2013 - 11:18 PM.

[Koniving]

The rest seems about valid from what I've been looking at (unlike most of which I had posted before since I wasn't going to dig up the exact info). I think something is off about the PPCs.

While that may make sense about PPCs where they travel at one velocity much like any other projectile, have you tried sitting and shooting one? I originally had the assumption they just travel as that rate instantly, but you'll see the animation, and after firing directly on a target (at that rate and being identical speed to Gauss rifle, the Gauss will hit and the PPC will still be 'moving' to the target and later be seen hitting something beyond the target, even as of the last patch where 'secondary explosions' from projectiles was resolved).

This means something is a little wrong with the "one velocity" theory. Unless it's just the animation itself doesn't keep up. I also recall Paul once mentioning that they accelerate and was going to link it, but I have failed to find it.