34 replies to this topic

[De La Fresniere]

I use the classic 4xLL Flame.

I like it a lot. Good damage (36) that can be placed very accurately at close range or at least all on an enemy mech at up to 450 meters, and pretty good damage-per-heat build considering it's all Energy.

I've read a bunch of threads about Flame loadouts (and about mechs with similar weight/hardpoints), and I keep seeing people insist that PPCs are better than LLs.

I've never tried PPCs, but... I call bovinefeces anyway.

If I used 4xPPCs instead, I'd:

+Gain *some* max range. Not a lot.
+Gain *some* damage (40 instead of 36).
+All the damage would automatically hit in one spot.

-Wouldn't be able to place damage as accurately due to projectile speed.
-Would have a minimum range of 90m.
-Would generate 36 heat per shot instead of 28.
-Would have to take *eight* tons off of my mech somehow.

That last one is really bad. I'm already as slow as a Dragon can afford to be, with the much worse damage-efficiency I really can't afford to take out DHS, and I just can't see myself taking off 256 points of armor.

So... PPCs better than LLs, really?

Is there something huge I'm missing, or is it just those damn kids and their drugs nowadays and back in my time we used to chase turtles for fun in the snow uphill both ways?

[Eisenhorne]

PPC's are IMO better than large lasers, but also much heavier. I actually find it easier to kill light mechs with PPC's at 200-400M than I do with large lasers, and the burst damage is awesome.

They are great at dealing with LRM mechs, you can fire, then dart back to avoid LRM return fire. The extra 100M range can't be underestimated, either.

If your fighting a long ranged battle, I'd rather have PPC's any day of the week.

However, a 4x PPC dragon just wont work. As you say, you'd have to cut down too far on the engine to fit them in, which means you'd have less engine slots in the mech for heatsinks, so your heat efficiency would go down. No, I find that the best mech for this is the stalker... 4x PPC's on a stalker will fit in with 21 double heatsinks, enough to actually manage the heat they generate.

If you want to try PPC's on a dragon, then I like my 2x PPC, 2x MPL, SRM6 flame. The PPC's for long range, MPL's and SRM for brawling.

[NRP]

I don't think they're better, or worse. Just different. PPCs are better if you like to snipe or take quick shots on the move, but I suppose you could do the same with LLs if you can hold them on target.

[Stingz]

L.Las is better for sustained DPS(lower heat, continuous), PPCs have better burst(energy-Gauss). It's more user preference than what's better.

I've noticed that PPCs shoot a ball of damage. Even if I barely miss, it still deals some scrape damage to the target.

Edited by Stingz, 10 January 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Wrenchfarm]

I think LLAS are generally the better choice for a lot of mechs and builds, Dragons included. While I am a big fan of both LLAS and PPCs, I only mount PPCs on the heavy hitters like my Awesomes. I fell like you need more tonnage and heat sinks than most sub-70 ton mechs can afford to really make PPCs worth it. Frankly I'm surprised we don't see more Atlai running around with two fists full of lightning.

LLAS are great because they are slightly lighter, slightly cooler, only marginally shorter range, and have the forgiving aim/tracking ability of lasers. I love all that stuff. PPCs are great because they guarantee all the damage gets soaked instantly into one component, fire off quickly (meaning you can torso twist just after firing), and rattle the enemies screen. They are both good weapons, but they do require different tactics and mechs to use effectively.

[De La Fresniere]

Well, I understand that people's playstyle differs... and maybe if they weighted the same as LLs they'd be usable by "smaller" mechs.

But as they are now, I just think blowing 8 freakin' tons on a sidegrade is nowhere near worth it. Even if I had a Stalker I'd go with 6xLL instead.

Oh well.

[Hex Pallett]

I wish I could have Fraps on on my every game. Last night I had a 1100+ damage, 6 kill match with my beloved twin-PPC K2.

PPC deals 10 damage immediately on a single spot and has 3 seconds cooldown, LL deals 9 damage within the span of 1 second and has 3.25 seconds cooldown. So really, PPC does deal more damage than LL.

The problem with PPC, however, is of course the heat. Other than the default 10 engine DHS (I will always use DHS instead of SHS because SHS is simply too weak to handle PPC's heat), my experience tells me that a PPC needs at least 4-5 DHS to balance the heat, and if you carry more than two PPCs, there's really not much space left for any other weapons systems. Carrying four PPCs on a Dragon is not far from suicide. The best I can do with a Flame is XL350, twin PPC with 18DHS.

Oh, and PPC sounds sexy as F**K.

Edited by Helmstif, 10 January 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Helmstif has the right of it. For any sort of sniping or skirmishing the PPC is definitely the better weapon. It's an ammo-free AC10 with a faster projectile for all intents and purposes. The problem boils down to weighing more and producing more heat -- the PPC just isn't as "boatable"... If you need a weapon that does double duty - gives you a medium range punch and protects from lights, the large laser is the better bet. If you can manage the extra heat and have other short range weapons to take care of that (or just don't care about defending against lights), the PPC is the better of the two. The easiest proof is to just try it. The weapon is MUCH more viable now with the projectile speed changes. Throw one PPC onto your 4LL build and see for yourself It'll cost you all of 2 tons...

[Kalam Mehkar]

Helmstif, on 10 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Oh, and PPC sounds sexy as F**K.

This.

I don't know on a Dragon, but on my CTF-3D I like twin PPCs... I was messing around last night with twin PPC in torso (for popping up over cover), and then twin LL in the arms. You'd think it'd be way hot, but it was surprisingly manageable if I thought about what I was doing and the situation...

[Abulafia]

I wouldn't call PPCs better, but I do run 4xPPC on my DRG-1C. The thing overheats like crazy. With doubled basic efficiencies, the heat efficiency is only 0.87, and you can get off about 1.5 consecutive alphas without overheating. If you should get separated from your team, or if a light should close on you, you're done.

But: Believe it or not, I do better with 4xPPCs than 4xLL. It's like a fast, ammo-less gausskitty with an extra punch. 40 damage in one spot means that even if you only pop out for a shot every 10-15 seconds, you can still do a ton of damage. And a 300XL engine gives you enough speed to get in and out of cover quickly and use your team as a shield. I only PUG, YMMV, etc., etc., but for a mech that shouldn't work, I think this thing is fantastic.

The full build (for the curious) has an XL300, DHS, ES, FF, as many DHS as you can fit on it (not many), and full armor except on the right arm and legs (all at about half).

[Skyfaller]

De La Fresniere, on 10 January 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I use the classic 4xLL Flame.

I like it a lot. Good damage (36) that can be placed very accurately at close range or at least all on an enemy mech at up to 450 meters, and pretty good damage-per-heat build considering it's all Energy.

I've read a bunch of threads about Flame loadouts (and about mechs with similar weight/hardpoints), and I keep seeing people insist that PPCs are better than LLs.

I've never tried PPCs, but... I call bovinefeces anyway.

If I used 4xPPCs instead, I'd:

+Gain *some* max range. Not a lot.
+Gain *some* damage (40 instead of 36).
+All the damage would automatically hit in one spot.

-Wouldn't be able to place damage as accurately due to projectile speed.
-Would have a minimum range of 90m.
-Would generate 36 heat per shot instead of 28.
-Would have to take *eight* tons off of my mech somehow.

That last one is really bad. I'm already as slow as a Dragon can afford to be, with the much worse damage-efficiency I really can't afford to take out DHS, and I just can't see myself taking off 256 points of armor.

So... PPCs better than LLs, really?

Is there something huge I'm missing, or is it just those damn kids and their drugs nowadays and back in my time we used to chase turtles for fun in the snow uphill both ways?

Yes the PPC is much better than the LL.

It delivers all its damage instantly in one point. LL spreads it and there is no way you can claim you can LL all the damage in a beam in one section of the target mech.

The slightly extra damage plus range plus insta-damage application is well worth the extra crit slot and tonnage.

The drawback? Yeah, the heat and the slight firing delay... but its like any projectile anyways. You do learn to aim it after a little while. Heat is not an issue if you split them into groups of two...that way you can quad-alpha shot when at very low heat and fire a 2-ppc burst when near high heat.

[Flapdrol]

You should really compare 4 large laser with 3 ppc's, very close in weight, the ppc setup has higher initial dps, the large lasers have better damage/heat, so better sustained dps.

Large lasers are superior imo, much easier to use, no minimum range and less likely to get in the way of a heatsink. PPC's will get a buff next week most likely, will certianly try em out.

Edited by Flapdrol, 10 January 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

It is a tradeoff. LLas run cooler, do less damage, but you can do theoretically pinpoint damage due to hitscan and sustain more of them. However, it is very easy to smear the LLas damage and almost neutralize laser damage by rolling a mech's armor as it gets hit. PPCs run way hotter and are not instant hit weapons, but they do all their damage instantly and specifically onto a single component, and hit harder to boot. Once the heat gets worked out, I fully intend to get back to experimenting with ERPPCs on my flame.

I would consider PPC and ERPPC as a sidegrade to AC10 and Gauss respectively, however, as the damage profile of the PPC is similar to the AC10 and the range is similar to Gauss. The advantage here being no ammunition concerns, with the obvious downside being the heat of the weapons.

[BerryChunks]

Lasers are worse because PPCs do a chunk of damage instantly, whereas in this game lasers are DoT weapons, which makes them worse already, buyt then the double armor makes them even more worser.

[BerryChunks]

Flapdrol, on 10 January 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

You should really compare 4 large laser with 3 ppc's, very close in weight, the ppc setup has higher initial dps, the large lasers have better damage/heat, so better sustained dps.

Large lasers are superior imo, much easier to use, no minimum range and less likely to get in the way of a heatsink. PPC's will get a buff next week most likely, will certianly try em out.

they better not. PPC cheese mechs are already all over. Your wishful thinking is a terrible way to design a game.

[Capt Jester]

It's really all down to personal preference. There is a lot of great debate here, and the only way to solve it is for each person to try the others' setups and see which one they like. Of course there would be bias, so you can't really test it that way either.

You can put things on paper and do calculations all day long, but it all comes down to the situation you as a pilot are in and your skill as a pilot.

Then you have to consider the fact that there are other 4xPPC builds, like the Stalker. There, you have much more tonnage to work with, so sacrificing that 8 tons of DHS is not necessary.

[De La Fresniere]

Capt Jester, on 10 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

the only way to solve it is for each person to try the others' setups and see which one they like. Of course there would be bias, so you can't really test it that way either.

You can put things on paper and do calculations all day long, but it all comes down to the situation you as a pilot are in and your skill as a pilot.

Yes... having spectated so many people (I never disconnect after death; I observe how other people play), it seems like my accuracy with lasers is far above average. On the other hand, I don't even *own* a PPC, and if my accuracy with Ballistics is any indication, I wouldn't be very good with them. Right away it seems my personal skill set is not favorable.

Regardless of my willingness to test them, I just don't think it's reasonably possible on a Dragon. Eight tons' difference is far too much. I could get maybe a couple tons (tops) by lowering my armor, then what? Downgrading the Engine from a 300 to a 250 is a *huge* speed difference but only saves 3 lousy tons, and the only other thing I could remove is DHS (three of them), which on a 36-heat per shot build is unacceptable (it's hard enough to manage 28-heat alphas with my 19 DHS). I'd end up with a slow, fragile Dragon that could do a couple good alphas and would then become virtually useless. Not to mention it'd always be useless under 90m and wouldn't even have the speed to get to range.

On paper alone, I can safely say it wouldn't just be inferior, it'd be truly awful. My guess is 4xPPC isn't acceptable on any mech lower than 80 tons. PPCs are quite decent when boated (50 or 60 damage in one spot is very good), but that's only possible for huge mechs.

Hopefully, they'll improve the PPCs by lowering their weight, not their heat. That way they might become viable for "smaller" mechs and the heat will still limit what one can achieve by boating them.

[Frank the Tank]

BerryChunks, on 10 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

they better not. PPC cheese mechs are already all over. Your wishful thinking is a terrible way to design a game.

Its not wishful thinking; its in the works: http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

PPCs are great, but using 4 on a mech that can't support them is just stupid. Take 2 and fill out the rest of the mech with other weapons. I don't understand why people assume boating or focusing on alpha damage is the only way to play. I use a PPC and LLAS on a Centurion AL and typically score at or near the top of my team in damage with at least 1 kill a game. Snipe with the PPC and brawl with the lasers. You should never put all your eggs in one basket.

[Hex Pallett]

PPC's DPS is 3.33 while LL is 2.12, making a PPC over 50% more powerful. Although a PPC also generates much over 50% heat than an LL (PPC's HPS=3, ERPPC's HPS=4.33, LL's HPS=1.65), it also comes with the convenience of dissipating heat immidiately, not mentioning other bonuses of the weapon.

PPCs are not awful, what's awful is your obsession of boating four PPCs. I thought I could explain and let you figure out yourself that boating over two PPCs is ridiculous for the tonnage of a Dragon, but apparently I didn't explain it clear enough.

Don't F**KING boat four PPCs. It's F**KING stupid.

Edited by Helmstif, 10 January 2013 - 09:23 PM.

[De La Fresniere]

Frank the Tank, on 10 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Its not wishful thinking; its in the works: http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

PPCs are great, but using 4 on a mech that can't support them is just stupid. Take 2 and fill out the rest of the mech with other weapons. I don't understand why people assume boating or focusing on alpha damage is the only way to play. I use a PPC and LLAS on a Centurion AL and typically score at or near the top of my team in damage with at least 1 kill a game. Snipe with the PPC and brawl with the lasers. You should never put all your eggs in one basket.

Having different types of weapons makes them awkward to use. Plus, instead of fighting at less-than-optimal strength in the 450-540+ range or the 1-90 range, I'd rather be good at 1-450. I do put all my eggs into the LL basket and it's served me very well just because it's a highly versatile weapon.

Boating *is* the way to go with PPCs. Their only real advantage is placing all their damage in one spot, and with multiples firing at the same time, that's exactly what happens. There's really no point in using one (and not much to using two).

Helmstif, on 10 January 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

PPC's DPS is 3.33 while LL is 2.12, making a PPC over 50% more powerful. Although a PPC also generates much over 50% heat than an LL (PPC's HPS=3, ERPPC's HPS=4.33, LL's HPS=1.65), it also comes with the convenience of dissipating heat immidiately, not mentioning other bonuses of the weapon.

PPCs are not awful, what's awful is your obsession of boating four PPCs. I thought I could explain and let you figure out yourself that boating over two PPCs is ridiculous for the tonnage of a Dragon, but apparently I didn't explain it clear enough.

Don't F**KING boat four PPCs. It's F**KING stupid.

I don't think heat dissipation changes with how the heat is added. Once there's heat it dissipates at whatever rate your heat sinks allow, and lasers start adding heat (more than you can get rid of in a second) as soon as you use them. So the PPC's terrible damage-per-heat ratio has a huge impact on actual DPS.

I realize 4 PPCs on a Dragon would be terrible. That's the whole point. People (in Dragon and K2 threads, among others) seem to insist PPCs are so very good... I just don't see it.

With current weights, I don't think any mech under 80 tons should use PPCs at all. They're bad unless boated and very few mechs are big enough to do so.