53 replies to this topic

[Ronstar]

Mahws, on 12 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Why are ECM light mechs the only viable option? Is it because they block LRMs? Nope, LRMs don't pose a huge threat to any fast moving light. Is it because they prevent radar ping at long range? Nope, Light mechs move too fast to be vulnerable at long range anyway. Is it because they block the use of SSRM, which are ridiculously unbalanced? Yeah, I'd say that's about right.

Problems with SSRM:

• Can be fired from any angle successfully. This is the largest issue, as it makes them dominant in Light Vs. Light combat, being able to reliably hit an enemy that's currently behind you with streaks removes much of the element of skill and artificially increases their effectiveness.

• Better than SRM + Artemis. At half the weight of Artemis not only do SSRM outperform, being much more accurate, but they also won't miss a moving target. Not so much a problem now as they're limited to SSRM2, but when Clan weapons show up for most mechs SRM, Artemis or not, simply won't be worth considering.

• Makes ECM more powerful than it should be. Not getting into any other balance problems that ECM may have, but the current state of streaks is inflated by their interaction with ECM. Any light mech without ECM is massively handicapped, not because they don't have the long range stealth, or the protection from LRMs, but because they'll be fighting a mech that can use streaks. Streaks make ECM unbalanced, rather than the other way around.

• Will be TOO effective against light mechs. Right now with network issues, the lack of collision/knockdown and ECM+SSRM combos SSRM is simply the best Light mech killer. Arguably as it is even a SSRM2 is too effective. A single SSRM6 would be utterly devastating, imagine a raven equipping the equivalent of 6xSSRM2 and I think you'll understand why this will be an issue.

TL;DR: Streaks are super effective against lights and better than SRM+Artemis of the same size against everything. This isn't super great now, but will be a mahooosive problem when we get clan weapons.









Proposed Solution:
SSRM have a minimum range of 80 metres and fly in a straight line for that period. Their turn rate would also be much reduced once they start tracking (i.e. not the 180 degree instant turn they're currently capable of). Like LRM's they only arm after a minimum distance, but unlike LRMs they don't begin to track immediately.

This solves all of the above issues.

Light Mechs:
Although still effective against lights it will now be unable to hit targets that are directly behind you, so will at least require you to be aiming in the general direction of an enemy. This means that a non-SSRM equipped mech will be able to counter an enemy using them by trying to remain behind them, or avoiding being in the range window. It will still be useful as an opening volley, if you have the speed/skill to keep your enemy in range, or for chasing an enemy that tries to disengage, but will no longer dominate at knife fighting range. It also means that a light mech can avoid instant destruction at the hands of a 3xSSRM6 Atlas D-DC by either keeping in close, moving between cover or flanking.

Artemis/SRM:
SSRM still have a significant advantage in accuracy, but now when you're equipping that SSRM6 you'll actually have to stop and think and ask yourself, 'is that advantage worth the minimum range?'. I'd say most people would say yes, but at least it's a question now.

ECM:
A balanced SSRM means that ECM isn't needed for light mechs. We might actually see Jenners and non ECM ravens on the battlefield again. I'd argue that at this point ECM could just increase lock on times for streaks rather than jam them completely and remain balanced.



TL;DR: Streaks are poorly balanced. Streaks will be super poorly balanced once we get clan weapons. Give them a minimum range and a turn rate to fix.


Credit to TungstenWall for the original idea.

They also need to randomize which parts of the mech they hit instead of always in the center torso.

Example:

SSRM 2 - Fires two missles, one hits the mech in the shoulder and one in the opposite leg. Not both in the center every time. Next shot might be one center and one in the arm.

Edited by Ronstar, 16 January 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Mahws]

Updated the OP with some of the other suggestions brought up here.

A combination of lower turning angle + more spread + lower damage definitely seems like a good alternative plan. I'm not 100% sold on it making Artemis a viable alternative, or on how even half damage boated SSRM6 will balance against lights, but it would certainly be a very good step in the right direction.

[Ashnod]

Easy fix for a streak would be to make it require a new lock for every volley (1 lock = 1 shot)

[Wraithfox]

Hey you know what, Since it seems everyone complains, Why don't we just solve the entire problem with one large stone. Just remove missiles entirely since they seem to be the gas to everyones argument. EVERYONE WINS.


SSRM's are fine the way they are, They don't do hardly any damage, have hardly any range and can't be fired without a solid lock. I won't go into how easily the ammo detonates from internal hits or how you can only fire two per launcher either. You people need to be glad they haven't implemented SSRM4's or SSRM6's. Until you fight a mech sporting those, NONE of you know what overpowered is.

LRM's are fine the way they are, You can camp behind a hill and lock on WITHOUT line of sight. (You cheeser boats need to start being thankful and stop bitchin' about everything just because you can't single handedly control the field anymore without help from your team.)


ECM units are also fine the way they are, They only have 180m range (Not to mention sensor range rank 2 helps). I believe its pretty obvious from the previous patch the Dev's have ZERO intention on changing the ECM from its current state. I for one am happy, Stop trying to make my job at scouting harder than it should be. I believe I read some where that the ECM was nerfed heavily compared to its Dev beta tested version.

Edited by Wraithfox, 16 January 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Mahws]

SSRM2 has a DPS higher than a ML, doesn't need to be aimed, always aims at torso, doesn't even need to be facing in the same direction. I'm sorry, you'll have to be a bit more persuasive than "It's really hard to be a Raven 3L pilot! Why is everyone persecuting me?!".

I run lights, I run lights with ECM+SSRM and I run lights without it. I get a kill or two on a good match without, I eat lesser lights for breakfast with. To use your own words, "Stop trying to make my job at scouting easier than it should be."

Ashnod, on 16 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Easy fix for a streak would be to make it require a new lock for every volley (1 lock = 1 shot)

Added to OP.

I think a problem with that would be that the current missile lock system is an all or nothing approach, so you'd not be able to mix SSRM/LRM or chain fire SSRM unless it was reworked.

[Wild Kadabra]

I agree with the reason ECM is so bad is because of the SSRM2s. My main issue with it is that it makes light mechs other than Raven 2L and Commando 2D completely obsolete. A Spider with ECM for a common Jenner with some medium lasers and SSRM2 just means the raven will have to be better at aiming it's lasers than the spider, a Raven 3L with streaks srm2 just has to run lookin in the general direction of the jenner to win. A very simple fix would be that only mechs with Ballistic, Beam hardpoints could carry it. Right now light mech fights turn out to w/e team has the most light mechs with ECMs so they can out-jam the other team.

One issue i do have with ECM is that it does way too many functions just by being there. An easy solution would be to split functions between modes. For instance Counter Mode prevents missile lock on, Disrupt counters other ecms and add another seperate mode that reduces sensor range for enemy mechs, instead of having it all together and so on.

Edited by Wild Kadabra, 17 January 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[KerenskyClone]

@OP: Wrong.

[Nonsense]

KerenskyClone, on 17 January 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

@OP: Wrong.

I wish they would give people who post things like this a temp forum ban. So incredibly useless.

[Mahws]

KerenskyClone, on 17 January 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

@OP: Wrong.

I get that you think that it's wrong that they're OP. Would have still liked to have heard your reasoning on why they weren't though.

But seriously, if you're not going to make an effort to explain your point of view, why post it in the first place? What does that achieve?

Edited by Mahws, 17 January 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Mawai]

Yep - I agree ... the main problem with ECM at the moment is the lack of balance in SSRMs.

ECM equipped mechs should not be able to mount SSRMs ... if you want a role playing reason you could just say that the ECM signals emitted by the mech interfere with its own missile targeting systems at close range

Other than that, SSRMs do need some balance adjustments. I don't know what sort of missile trajectory limitations might be supported by the game engine. Is it possible to impose a missile trajectory and turning limits that vary based on distance traveled? Will that add to much to server side load and weapon hit determination?

Some alternate suggestions:
-reduce SSRM damage from 2.5 down to 2.0.
-increase spread on SSRM so that they won't always hit the exact same mech segment
-possibly both depending on the results of balance tests

To balance: take a streak cat out on the test server and test fire it at both stationary and moving targets ... look at total damage done and distribution of damage.

LRMs need a balance tweak as well. When not countered by ECM they are still extremely effective.

Once SSRM and LRM are rebalanced ... the ECM effect could be changed from denying lock-ons to an increase in the time required to obtained a lock-on by some factor (1.5x, 2x, 3x, 4x ... whatever is balanced).

[Shae Starfyre]

The problem with this idea is that it would make any heavy or assault mechs that rely on a few SSRM's to nearly be useless in their use to defend themselves from light mechs, as the light mech will always move behind them.

In my DC Atlas, it is hard enough to focus on a light to use SSRMs (3), just to lock on, even when countering ECM (god forbid there's two ECM lights).

The real issue, in my opinion, is the number of SSRMS, to the chassis, like 3 on the Commando seems extreme to me.

I believe their turn radius, as mention is also extreme, but then we are back to them not hitting lights at all.

What is interesting about all this talk, is that it sounds like a one to one issue, and not one is thinking about how team play is effected.

[Ashnod]

Mahws, on 17 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

SSRM2 has a DPS higher than a ML, doesn't need to be aimed, always aims at torso, doesn't even need to be facing in the same direction. I'm sorry, you'll have to be a bit more persuasive than "It's really hard to be a Raven 3L pilot! Why is everyone persecuting me?!".

I run lights, I run lights with ECM+SSRM and I run lights without it. I get a kill or two on a good match without, I eat lesser lights for breakfast with. To use your own words, "Stop trying to make my job at scouting easier than it should be."


Added to OP.

I think a problem with that would be that the current missile lock system is an all or nothing approach, so you'd not be able to mix SSRM/LRM or chain fire SSRM unless it was reworked.

Just add a different locking reticule for the streaks so that the LRM's one can stay locked while the streak's one resets etc

Edited by Ashnod, 17 January 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Mahws, on 17 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

SSRM2 (...) always aims at torso (...)

No mate,you are wrong.
There was time SSRMs worked this way,but since few patches they spread damage among RT/CT/LT.Of course,if the target is something what has a huge central torso (Awesome,Atlas) it's more likely all missiles will hit CT.

The only aspect of SSRMs which needs some balance was CT-only hitting (already fixed) and shake/smoke effect (partially fixed).The rest is fine and doesn't need to be touched,except "target circling" bug.

For these to say how easy to use SSRMs are I advise to take a light mech and try to get lock on another light during dogfight on rough terrain.

[Mahws]

Torso = LT/CT/RT. SSRM2 do the same Alpha damage as a Medium Laser, with higher DPS and half the heat. They also hit torso segments with every shot (unless the arm is in the way), don't miss and can hit a target you're not even facing. Compare that to a Medium Laser that often won't even hit for all of it's damage on the enemy, let alone all on a maximum of two parts of the torso blocks. That's not my idea of a balanced weapon.

As for lock on, I do run lights and I do run SSRM, at a ping of 200+ I have absolutely no trouble achieving and maintaining lock on. Even if somehow I'm an exception and everyone else is having a super hard time locking on with SSRM (which considering my reflexes probably isn't the case) you're still going to find it a hell of a lot easier to lock on with an SSRM than to hit with ML for any real damage.

Aphoticus, on 17 January 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

The problem with this idea is that it would make any heavy or assault mechs that rely on a few SSRM's to nearly be useless in their use to defend themselves from light mechs, as the light mech will always move behind them.

In my DC Atlas, it is hard enough to focus on a light to use SSRMs (3), just to lock on, even when countering ECM (god forbid there's two ECM lights).

The real issue, in my opinion, is the number of SSRMS, to the chassis, like 3 on the Commando seems extreme to me.

I believe their turn radius, as mention is also extreme, but then we are back to them not hitting lights at all.

What is interesting about all this talk, is that it sounds like a one to one issue, and not one is thinking about how team play is effected.

What is interesting about your post is that it sounds like a one to one issue and you don't talk about how team play is effected. Where is your screening light to protect your rear? Why don't you have another medium/heavy/assualt with you to cover each others vulnerable angles? If you're solo for no fault of your own, why aren't you backing up against a wall to prevent the enemy from getting behind you, or mixing torso twist with turning to get shots in as he circle strafes you?

If a light mech is behind you as an assault you deserve to be shot in the ***, that's the trade off for your high armor and weapons, the vulnerability of low maneuverability. Teamwork and skill should prevent that weakness killing you, not a broken weapon system that can hit a light mech that's behind you.

Edited by Mahws, 17 January 2013 - 06:33 PM.