10 replies to this topic

[BatWing]

So,

I was reading again and again the ELO explanation at the Command Chair forum.

Long story short, it seems ELO was created mostly for a 1 vs 1 player matching porpose, therefore with PUGging in mind.

Good. So PUG's concerns related "OMG.. i gotta drop with someone way more skilled than me, I am dead meat" may possibly be addressed.

However, Phase 2 showed how the unbalance on drops is a matter need to be addressed.

Competition is important, but competition translated to Atlas and Raven just because are the Min/Max and they are spoiling the malfunctioning game system, is not even fun anymore.

Phase 3 ELO is not addressing any of this. it is not clear to me if the sort of balancing we actually have on 4-man will be removed as well to make room to the new ELO concept.

4-man is the only actual way to still have fun on this game piloting all of the Classes.

I am a Medium pilot. I enjoy HBK and I can have fun only on 4-man drops.

I just don t get the reason why DEVs are reinventing the wheel with this difficult and ineffective method.

BVs and Weight limits have been used since forever in this game to establish balancing. What s wrong with that?

When you compare the "Probability to kill" or the Skill Value, you are not preventing the problem that has been demonstrated so far.

I hope at least one of the 2 usable Drop system will keep a sort of balancing, to continue offer players an enjoyment, doesn t matter what Class they pilot.

And i can guarantee you, Medium Mechs are not useless on the battlefield, and I am not going to switch from my Fav Mech Class to another one just because this game has a broken balance.

Are you people really satisfied with this incoming ELO solution ?

[Purplefluffybunny]

As long as no-one conflates balance amongst the skills of players with balance amongst the assets and equipment, we should be fine

[Lyteros]

I already startet a discussion about this, seems people lack intrest and are content waiting for the mess to appear before acting.

Try this thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...age__p__1682428

[Mack1]

TBH I have to agree that the way the devs have gone around game balancing is a bit laughable. They should have used a tried and tested method that every other F2P game of similar design uses. Abolish all trial Mechs,let the player start with a medium Mech and no money, they have to progress from this point forward.

Have two queues, one for groups and one for solos and limit the number of mechs per class in each game, problem is now 100% sorted and it does work, WOT is total proof.

Edited by Mack1, 13 January 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Zerbob]

ELO actually does address the issue of teams. ELO is effectively a probability, it's a rating of how likely you are to win any 1v1. However this does work for teams, because lo and behold, averages exist. You can effectively treat the entire team as one person, with a ELO from the average ELO of all team members. Now you have a probability for that entire team to win any engagement.

We can even take this further and look at each member of both teams. For simplicity's sake let us say fights are now Lance v Lance (4v4). One team has one really good player, 2 average players and one weaker player. The other team are all average players.

The fight starts, and the weak player takes a wrong turn and gets separated, and runs into the other team. They promptly fill his chassis with lead and he dies. It is now 3v4. At this point we face two things 1) The updated probabilities for each team to win and 2) Something from Battletech tabletop, the Force Number Multiplier.
1)Say the weaker player did 0 damage, he was killed before he could respond. The ELO of the "average Lance" hasn't changed. The ELO of the other one has though, in fact it's gone up! With the weaker player gone, their average ELO rises because they have a new average. However this shift is likely small, and actually not a significant change in this battle.

2) It is now 3v4. In Battletech TableTop if you had superior numbers, your rating had a small multiplier to represent superior numbers. Many 'Mechs doing medium damage will typically be better than a few 'Mechs that do lots (due to the randomness of hitting a target. More dice rolls = more hits). This is seen in every video game, when out numbered it becomes harder to win (there are of course, a few exceptions). This is especially prevalent in MWO, and for example MOBA games.

The ELO system does work, or else it wouldn't be so widespread.

[BatWing]

Lyteros, on 13 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

I already startet a discussion about this, seems people lack intrest and are content waiting for the mess to appear before acting.

Try this thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...age__p__1682428

Yup, read your thread as well.

True.. it seems there is not much of interest. Common answer is "let s wait and see".. but I think a bit of preventive action would be better than just acting "after", especially when it seems obvious this Phase 3 is not doing anything about the unbalanced drop we are suffering.

What i can only say about "let s wait and see" is regarding let s wait and see how much this will screw the game worse, in order to finally require a serious adjustment.

[BatWing]

Zerbob, on 13 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

ELO actually does address the issue of teams. ELO is effectively a probability, it's a rating of how likely you are to win any 1v1. However this does work for teams, because lo and behold, averages exist. You can effectively treat the entire team as one person, with a ELO from the average ELO of all team members. Now you have a probability for that entire team to win any engagement.

We can even take this further and look at each member of both teams. For simplicity's sake let us say fights are now Lance v Lance (4v4). One team has one really good player, 2 average players and one weaker player. The other team are all average players.

The fight starts, and the weak player takes a wrong turn and gets separated, and runs into the other team. They promptly fill his chassis with lead and he dies. It is now 3v4. At this point we face two things 1) The updated probabilities for each team to win and 2) Something from Battletech tabletop, the Force Number Multiplier.
1)Say the weaker player did 0 damage, he was killed before he could respond. The ELO of the "average Lance" hasn't changed. The ELO of the other one has though, in fact it's gone up! With the weaker player gone, their average ELO rises because they have a new average. However this shift is likely small, and actually not a significant change in this battle.

2) It is now 3v4. In Battletech TableTop if you had superior numbers, your rating had a small multiplier to represent superior numbers. Many 'Mechs doing medium damage will typically be better than a few 'Mechs that do lots (due to the randomness of hitting a target. More dice rolls = more hits). This is seen in every video game, when out numbered it becomes harder to win (there are of course, a few exceptions). This is especially prevalent in MWO, and for example MOBA games.

The ELO system does work, or else it wouldn't be so widespread.

You do understand the ELO is NOT what we need?

Doesn t matter if it works on teams or single, is just NOT what we need.

We need something to balance drops as forces on the ground, not Skills. Skills at this moment are secondary issues. Cant hide yourself behind the skill issue if you lose a match. you will always find a better pilot than yourself, that should be an incentive to improve, not a whining reason to cry.

However, when you are largely out-tonned, there is no skill saving your ***. I will never have a chance engaginfg 2 AS in my HBK. But I know that. I just would like to see a bit of realism when you drop, with some restrain.

This game is losing realism by the minute...

[BoomDog]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

You mean that because you do 4 man drops, thus having a dramatically higher win rate than a typical solo player, that you will end up fighting players running Atlases and Ravens?

[Jungle Rhino]

Given that all light mech pilots are so amazingly skilled they will end up in their own upper ELO tier which means everybody else can have a great time actually playing a big stompy robot game instead of chicken-hunter-2050

[Broceratops]

so you want to continue to pugstomp against disorganized pubbies under the pretense that 'its fair' because the basic factors such as mech type is equal?

you can put the same mech in the hands of 2 pilots and one will do 1000 damage and one will do 100, so skills is not a 'secondary issue'. it is the primary determinant in who wins or loses and should therefore be the primary balance to ensure good games where half the players don't feel like quitting the game afterwards.

i must not understand your platform because i'm not seeing why putting players with similar win % against each other will not work. it might be unbalanced at the start if you're in a gimp mech all the time, but this would start to reflect in your ELO rating and start giving you inferior opponents.

there is no game where average players can win at 80% like people can in MWO right now simply by being on TS and stomping pugs. from what I hear in WoT, if you can win even 65% of the time, you're practically a god. the current state of matchmaking is not going to last and it should not last because it alienates the vast majority of new players.

Edited by Broceratops, 13 January 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[BoomDog]

Broceratops, on 13 January 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

so you want to continue to pugstomp against disorganized pubbies under the pretense that 'its fair' because the basic factors such as mech type is equal?

you can put the same mech in the hands of 2 pilots and one will do 1000 damage and one will do 100, so skills is not a 'secondary issue'. it is the primary determinant in who wins or loses and should therefore be the primary balance to ensure good games where half the players don't feel like quitting the game afterwards.

i must not understand your platform because i'm not seeing why putting players with similar win % against each other will not work. it might be unbalanced at the start if you're in a gimp mech all the time, but this would start to reflect in your ELO rating and start giving you inferior opponents. whether you're solo or in a group there wouldn't be a difference.

IKR

I was wondering the same thing. I never thought I'd hear someone use the terms "4 man" and "balance" in the same sentence.

It's been proven in WoT that win rate is the most accurate measure of player skill, unless you're in a team, which makes it artificially high. If ELO is implemented the way it sounds, 4 mans will have to be fighting the absolute best solo players in the game. Even then, they'll still maintain the highest win rate, they'll just be losing more often.