188 replies to this topic

[hashinshin]

So many people will admit DHS are a problem, that Battletech's mech creation process has always allowed for blatantly broken mechs that go heat neutral way too easily... yet are so attached to their preconceived notions as to what Battletech is that they can't accept it changing.

How so many people can admit that Battletech is a broken imbalanced system for mech creation then turn around and demand that it can not change blows my mind. Did you REALLY think the following:

A. That engines getting free 2.0 heat sinks (that's 10 free heat sinks) was not going to force everyone and their mother in to DHS
B. That mechs were not going to go heat neutral ridiculously quickly and force the developers to either just accept that heat was just a system you upgraded past, or balanced for DHS and made SHS users feel like hell.
C. If DHS were allowed to be 2.0 and be in the engine that new players in trial mechs would NOT just get completely decimated? DHS going in to the game as you wanted them would just be blatant powercreep.

Stop being so attached to a system that was created in the 80's with no intent on being balanced! They're trying to create a game, not a nostalgia engine. If you want a nostalgia engine you can go play Battletech, it's still there. Nobody threw Battletech away. This game is meant to invoke the feeling of Battletech but do it in a way that is BALANCED, not in a way to get off the people with apparent spreadsheet kinks.

Alright because people have made some good points I'm going to make some retorts in the OP:

Q. But doesn't the massive increased heat generation require DHS to be 2.0?
A. No, it requires heat AS A WHOLE to be less powerful. Saying "well SHS mechs are screwed but at least DHS players can play the game!" is not the way to go. People should be able to use more weapons and less heat sinks than they do now, I agree.

Q. But without 2x DHS my 3x PPC mech can't go heat neutral!
A. Lets be honest, with current (2.0 but no engine) DHS the Awesome can shoot enough as is reasonable before having to lower its weapons and not overheat. You SHOULDN'T be able to use these massive weapons as much or we'll fall in to the pitfall of the old Mechwarrior games where the mech types are "You can be any mech you want, so long as it's a big heavy or an assault."
A2. In addition to that PPCs just suck right now on their own. Large lasers are good. Gauss are fantastic. LRMs are good. One big weapon (the PPC) sucking doesn't make them ALL suck. I see PLENTY of mechs using giant weapons and the damage they output is fine. If you want to blame something here, blame the maps being too small.

Q. But the old games blabla.
A. The old games pretty much had everyone using the biggest weapons and all going heat neutral in Clan Assault mechs. We don't want that.

Q. But clan tech!
A. I don't know what they're going to do with clan tech. My hope is they separate Clans from Innersphere and we have a sort of Inner Sphere gets 12 mechs, Clan gets 8 mechs, and they can queue against each other, and against themselves, but Clan and Innersphere are not on the same team. However, if Clan tech is added to Innersphere (AKA we don't separate them) that'll cause a pretty massive powercreep in damage dealt that will make the pacing of the game all wrong.

Q. But tech 2 is supposed to replace tech 1!
A. Canonically it does. But in game with how few technology battletech has (in the 80's this was a lot, but games have had ludicrous complexity ceep since then) they have to at least be somewhat of a choice to increase the amount of choices players can make. Right now we already have Endosteel being basically 3.5 tons for 500,000 credits on each mech. We don't want DHS to just be a flat "everyone gets it and then is better" too.
A2. Battletech was a tactics tabletop game. Mechwarrior is a customization mech FPS. They have different focuses.

Q. But streak SRM 6!
A. Don't really know why this was brought up, but, I guess we can nerf streak SRM 6 to have higher heat gen if it comes to that. SRMs NOT in streak kinda suck right now (the nerf to them earlier made the 2 SRM 6 shotgun build no longer able to kill people in 5 seconds which was all it did) and that's a problem. SRMs not in streak need buffs, Streak SRM 2 seem fine to me. If streak SRM 6 are OP that's an issue doown the line.

AND IN CONCLUSION: YES! I do think there is way too much heat going on. However, I want DHS and such to be a CHOICE rather than an auto-include to solve an issue. The issue isn't fixed with handaids, we need to surgically get in there and fix the heat issue on its own.

Edited by Hayashi, 03 November 2012 - 10:36 AM.
Removed the more offensive language.

[Inkarnus]

thats i bet why only 1.4 dhs but agree to you and probably new heat mechanik so no worrys

[Acehilator]

Due to almost tripled heat buildup building heat neutral mechs with 2.0 DHS would still be nowhere as easy as with the TT rules.

So no nostalgia, I just want to use large energy weapons, even one or two ER variants. Yeah I know, silly me.

[Vassago Rain]

If they won't change the heat of guns that were made to be used with dubs, and refuse to implement dubs properly, what's the point of having either, and playing in this era?

If they wanted age of war, they could have set it in the age of war. If they wanted MORE of everything, they could have set it in the dark ages. But this is clearly set in an era where this is how the game operates, and has always operated. They're basically saying 'sorry, but our artistic license is saying [REDACTED]

And they're doing this because....? Because? Because balance? What balance? It's already streak and gauss every day, all day. No one's had anything to say about the OP of lasers since forever. No one uses the big energy weapons.

Edited by Viterbi, 03 November 2012 - 07:37 AM.
Removed offensive language

[Pangorin]

hashinshin, on 03 November 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

...
This game is meant to invoke the feeling of Battletech but do it in a way that is BALANCED, not in a way to get off the people with apparent spreadsheet kinks.
...

And this is said NOW?!? Wait a little, just a few months, then the CLAN MECHS will arrive .... uh, hell, that will be fun!

[Lyteros]

So you suggest this 1,4 DHS stuff and three times the heatsink requirement from TT improves Balance?

Guess the changes do not make much of a balance issue to gausscats and LRM-spammers. So why should they complain, even easier to stand around and hold the left mouse down, now that pewpew users are even faster in shutdown?

[Squid von Torgar]

MWO is set in 3050 (or just before) and the entire point is that Tech 2 does make Tech 1 obsolescent. It also allows the IS to stand a chance against the Clans.

But lets forget all Cannon, and look at gameplay.

Currently PPCs, ER PPCS, Large Lasers, and Large Pulse are not worth taking. If you decide to take a mech that relies on them you automatically are entering a match at a huge disadvantage compared to LRM boating or taking Gauss.

This means that a large number of the mech varients availble to us just arent worth purchasing.

BT and MW have always been about choice and trade offs. Each weapon should be balanced against others of its size and against other classes. It should be a tough decision on what loadouts to take, and the player should have to weigh up the advantages/Disadvantages of a certain build.

What we have now, is that the game is totally skewed to 3 types of build. You can boat Gauss, LRMs or Streaks, anything elsejust doesnt cut it.

How is that better gameplay?

I want choices as a player, not to be forced to take a certain build. It should be about player skill not picking the obviously better weapons. Thats how BT played out, and it was my hope that MWO would have the same balance. Apparently PGI dont agree.

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 03 November 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[Acehilator]

Pangorin, on 03 November 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

And this is said NOW?!? Wait a little, just a few months, then the CLAN MECHS will arrive .... uh, hell, that will be fun!

Given the track record PGI has established during the last months this will be epic yeah. SSRM6 and UAC/20 are going to be epic. At least you do not have to worry about the Clan LPL and ERPPC if they stick to 1.4 DHS, rofl

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

But lets forget all Cannon, and look at gameplay.

[Grammar ****]C A N O N[/Grammar ****]

Sorry, could not resist

[n00bfish]

I would take a less heated tone, but I do agree to an extent with OP. I think that me & my fellow old fans probably would benefit from the realization that (1) TT rules weren't infallible, and (2) weren't designed with a competitive FPS in mind. I have to continuously remind myself that -- after all, the TT rules didn't beam down from the heavens as a magically perfect system. They were created by humans, just like the MWO rules.

Most other TT games that were contemporaries of BT (e.g., the Games Workshop / Warhammer games, which I also played) regularly revised their rule sets to re-balance everything. BT didn't. So when we got an imbalanced piece of BT tech, we just had to live with it and count on BV to even things out.

I'm not saying that MWO is balanced. But I'm not saying TT was either. Let's wait till next week and see how DHS play. If the value needs to be tweaked, or specific weapons need to be tweaked (e.g., PPCs, etc.), then lets deal with them.

But just because it doesn't match TT doesn't make it inherently broken, IMHO.

Just my two cents.

[Adrienne Vorton]

yea clantech will bring the QQ and balance-race to a whole new level^^ honestly, i´d still prefer a 3025 setting... but that´s a dream never come true

imagine how much energy they could put into the community warfare and make it AWESOME, if they didn´t have to bother with the clan invasion so soon.....

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 03 November 2012 - 05:11 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

at least aws-8q will b viable with clan PPC bcuz u can take more HS

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

Let's wait till next week and see how DHS play. If the value needs to be tweaked, or specific weapons need to be tweaked (e.g., PPCs, etc.), then lets deal with them.

I dont need to wait till next week. I know already. Currently my Awesome 9M has the equivalent of 28 SHS. With the new 1.4 fix it will have the equivalent of 28 SHS.

So just how is it meant to use its ER PPCs without over heating? I get one shot with them and have to wait 12 seconds before firing again. A Gaussapult can fire 3 times for 90 damage compared to my one shot of 30 damage.

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 03 November 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Stickjock]

hashinshin, on 03 November 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Did you REALLY think the following:

A. That engines getting free 2.0 heat sinks (that's 10 free heat sinks) was not going to force everyone and their mother in to DHS

On that one... still from my point of view, my AWS-8R (3xML, 4xSRM6's, AMS) would not benefit from DHS... even with the engines... even IF they where 2.0... think she was running at around 36-38 HS in it when I had it... with everything loaded and attempting to put DHS on it... think I ended up figuring it'd drop down to the 30-is range... might even have been below that... so, wasn't even planning on using them personally in my favorite build...

[Nasty McBadman]

Squid von Torgar, on 03 November 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

I dont need to wait till next week. I know already. Currently my Awesome 9M has the equivalent of 28 SHS. With the new 1.4 fix it will have the equivalent of 28 SHS.

So just how is it meant to use its ER PPCs without over heating? I get one shot with them and have to wait 12 seconds before firing again. A Gaussapult can fire 3 times for 90 damage compared to my one shot of 30 damage.

Or, you could fire 3 shots of 10 damage timed so that the first PPC would be ready to fire again. Withdraw to cover for cool when heat gets high. This will be an even more viable tactic if a PPC secondary effect is added.

[Von Falkenstein]

Increasing heat on energy weapons and decreasing the heat dissipation of double heatsinks to 1.4 in the same turn while big energy weapons are mostly left unused by experienced players is kinda depressing and has nothing to do with nostalgic TT players. Plainly, it's a dumb decision.

[Kousagi]

You can argue that clan double heat sinks are broken, which they were in TT when they came out too. IS double heat sinks on the other hand are not as great. Most heavy mechs still do better with singles, then they do with doubles for the simple fact that the doubles take sooooooo much space. Heck, even my Jenner had to drop FF to get more space for heat sinks cause i ran out of criticals using doubles.

[Ace Kaller]

Pangorin, on 03 November 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

And this is said NOW?!? Wait a little, just a few months, then the CLAN MECHS will arrive .... uh, hell, that will be fun!

I'm not so sure anymore. Given PGI's track record so far, who knows what they will turn the clans into. They'll probably make clan weapons inferior, make omnis non-configurable, make the Targeting Computer scatter your fire, force all mechs to equip A-pods even though we dont have infantry, etc.....

[CCC Dober]

Okay, here is why we need DHS to work as specified, that means double efficiency:

The current heat system is based on 10 second turns. That means every weapon is supposed to be fired every 10 seconds to work as specified by BT stats. Each Single Heat Sinks dissipates 0.1 heat per second and that sums up to 1 after 10 seconds. That makes sense.

Now the funny thing is that our weapons do in fact not follow the 10 second rule. They fire faster than that and the games become more intense. The downside is that the heat system does NOT follow this change of plans and what we get is an overheating mess.

So now does the game not only punish hot weapons by design, but the faulty implementation of DHS serves to increase the inherent failure and make things even more unbearable. It's fail on top of fail. How hard is it to realize that, PGI?

[Yokaiko]

This is a total head scratcher.

I want to know what the common builds they tested were. At 1.4 you STILL won't be able to keep the stock mechs cool.

.....and increasing laser heat? Are you ******* joking? People don't avoid balistics because lasers are so great they avoid them because the fire delay is still all over the place, hit detentions are completely hosed and with double armor you have to carry 4+ tons of ammo ON TOP of the added heat load.

FFS, clamping heat like this is going to keep the current FotM FtoM forever, the heavy anergy weapons are ALL a BAD choice over the mediums and smalls because of the heat load, and anyone that can do 8th grade math should see this.

[Franchi]

No one but the most obsessed nuts (such as me) even TRY to build things with PPC's or ERPPC's and PGI's answer is to nerf double heat-sinks. And you find the players ironic?WTF?

What they want me to sit in my streakcat forever?????

Edited by Franchi, 03 November 2012 - 05:38 AM.