31 replies to this topic

[BIGSHELL]

Hey guys,

Ive been running my hunchback 4G for a while now and I love the power of my AC/20, so I decided to go with a cataphract that packs even more power. The thing is though, I am having a terrible time playing with this mech. Ive got the std 280 engine, endo, an AC/20, 3ML, and SRM4, SRM6. I just dont know what it is about this mech, but I feel like I am just a huge damage sponge. I seem to go down way quicker than in my 4G, in a heavy mech that I was hoping to take to the front lines. I cant afford DHS yet or else I would be running a few LL. Can you guys give me some tips about what I'm doing wrong, or did I just purchase the worst Cataphract?

[Eisenhorne]

That phract is EXACTLY the one I run, in the same configuration, and I generally do very well with it... have had a few games where I do 1000+ damage, 6+ kills. You get the idea.

First, check your armor allocation. Your torsos need to be maxed, Also, consider swapping rear armor to the front. Its riskier, but if your a good pilot they shouldn't get rear shots on you anyway. I leave all 3 rear torsos at 18, max front armor. This will allow you to take more damage from the front.

Second, just know that your NOT going to be the biggest, baddest mech out there, not by a long shot. Your best bet is to stay behind an atlas, and wait for it to engage. Once the enemy is distracted by the atlas, open up on him. Your fast enough to get around the atlas to a clear line of fire, to help him kill his targets quickly and effectively. Your not going to be a hero brawler in this mech, where you can take down mechs by yourself without taking massive damage. Its all about the teamwork. At ~70 KPH after speed tweak, your fast enough you can move around a brawl to get a good firing position, but you can't really engage or disengage by yourself. your best bet, again, is to stick around the atlases.

If you find yourself taking too much fire, back off. Again, your not fast enough to disengage entirely, but you should be able to withdraw behind your teammates, exposing undamaged portions of your mech to your pursuer. This should force him to either follow you through the center of your team, where he SHOULD be vaporized by teammates, or disengage, and allow you to regroup and re-engage someone else.

[Selfish]

Like Eisonhorne said, you're not going to be the biggest baddie out there and you make a great team player. One thing you can do over most brawlers is mount impressive alpha onto your arms. Fight on inclines or turning fights. Those are where arms really shine, and where you can really flex that arm mounted burst. These situations are fantastic when flanking opponents, so do stick with friends and swing around when the opportunity presents itself.

[Fangry]

I used a gauss for my own 2x.. I just love the ac 20's but sometimes having that fast moving pinpoint dmg is nice to pick off parts that your team mates have already damaged. It is very heat efficient so you can spam your lasers more.. and you'd rarely overheat on caustic valley. Also nice for shooting at that LRM boat that stays in the open to spam missiles at you.

[Tremendous Upside]

When I leveled out my CTF's, the 2X was the one I didn't get. Initially... Then on a whim, I bought one about a month ago - and it immediately become my favorite of the bunch. I run the 2X with 1xPPC, 1xAC10 (2 tons ammo), 2xML, and 2xSRM4 (3tons ammo) with XL320, DHS, Endo, 416 armor) and the rest of the space packed with HS's. The heat efficiency on the surface doesn't look great. I think it's somewhere around 1.11 -- but the weapons aren't all firing at every distance, so it's extremely manageable. It's a really nice skirmishing build that works best if you're not leading the charge and can engage targets at ~200m while others are brawling with them.

[jshill78]

I personally think that the CTF-2X is best with 3 Large Lasers and 2 SRM6. Ballistics are terrible in my personal experience. Damage to weight ratio is bad and limited by ammo.

The 3 bursts of 4 missiles with the tube count keeps your damage nice and focused.

[Fangry]

jshill78, on 14 January 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

I personally think that the CTF-2X is best with 3 Large Lasers and 2 SRM6. Ballistics are terrible in my personal experience. Damage to weight ratio is bad and limited by ammo.

The 3 bursts of 4 missiles with the tube count keeps your damage nice and focused.

I have to actually agree with this build.. it's probably one of the better ones becaue you are covered for most situations without any weaknesses. You can shoot the lasers from long range almost nonstop.

But don't frown upon ballistics because they can be very deadly in the right hands.

Edited by Fangry, 14 January 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

The problem with large lasers at close range is the heat. I can't non-stop fire 3 Large Lasers + SRM's, or I'll overheat my mech.

An AC/20 is very heat efficient for the damage it does. I can fire my AC/20 + SRM's all day long, interspersed with some blasts of medium lasers.

While a 3 large laser + SRM phract is no doubt better at 300+ meters, at less than 200 meters I'd put money on the AC/20 phract.

[Pando]

The 2x is my favorite variant of the cataphract. I'm using the following build and you're welcome in advance

jshill78, on 14 January 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

I personally think that the CTF-2X is best with 3 Large Lasers and 2 SRM6. Ballistics are terrible in my personal experience. Damage to weight ratio is bad and limited by ammo.

The 3 bursts of 4 missiles with the tube count keeps your damage nice and focused.

Wait, never-mind someone else is smart too!

Eisenhorne, on 14 January 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

The problem with large lasers at close range is the heat. I can't non-stop fire 3 Large Lasers + SRM's, or I'll overheat my mech.

An AC/20 is very heat efficient for the damage it does. I can fire my AC/20 + SRM's all day long, interspersed with some blasts of medium lasers.

While a 3 large laser + SRM phract is no doubt better at 300+ meters, at less than 200 meters I'd put money on the AC/20 phract.

Let's see your ac/20 phract in a duel v/s my 3LL 2xSRM6 phract.

[Mechteric]

My 2X is based around using speed, so I run XL with UAC5, lasers, and SRMs. Pretty deadly combination!

[jshill78]

CapperDeluxe, on 14 January 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

My 2X is based around using speed, so I run XL with UAC5, lasers, and SRMs. Pretty deadly combination!

If by deadly you mean to the pilot and not to enemy mechs. XL engine is a Cataphract is cutting your life expectancy in half. The huge and easily shot side torsos make de mech go boom. The good thing is you won't live long enough to go out of ammo.

[Pando]

jshill78, on 14 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

If by deadly you mean to the pilot and not to enemy mechs. XL engine is a Cataphract is cutting your life expectancy in half. The huge and easily shot side torsos make de mech go boom. The good thing is you won't live long enough to go out of ammo.

I use an XL in mine. I don't often find myself taking dirt-naps. Not arguing it's a risk. However, pilot ability also comes into question.

My adaptability is...IMO pretty high up there.

Edited by Pando, 14 January 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Pando, on 14 January 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

The 2x is my favorite variant of the cataphract. I'm using the following build and you're welcome in advance Wait, never-mind someone else is smart too! Let's see your ac/20 phract in a duel v/s my 3LL 2xSRM6 phract.

I'd love to duel you, and this is one of the reasons why we need better game modes / matchmaking. I'd kill for a solaris style gameplay mode where its 1v1, and you can pick your opponent. So many disputes between who's better, what mech variant is better, etc could be settled in this way.

But yea, a 3 LL phract also has the huge problem that its lasers don't do all their damage to a single point on the body. An AC/20 shot does 20 damage to whatever you point it at. Lasers, if your opponent is smart, can be distributed between 2-3 different locations on the body.

Also, the AC/20 allows you to have 3 free laser slots, which you can add in medium lasers. In terms of sheer damage output, a 3 ML, AC/20, SRM6+4 phract will do more than a 3 LL 2SRM6 phract. Not saying it doesn't have downsides, as large laser heavy builds are a favorite of mine, its just that for a brawler I think the variant with the AC/20 is better.

[jshill78]

OK, let's break this down so we can get some facts exposed. I assume by your post that your AC20 build looks something like this:

CTF-2X

On paper it looks pretty good.5.76 sustained DPS is nice. The problem is the 14 shots that you are limited to of AC20 before it just becomes dead weight and the fact that you are using 200 rounds of SRM ammo but limiting the damage potential of the ammo by using SRM4/SRM6 instead of 2 SRM6. Not to mention that the tubes aren't used as efficiently and calculating for misses.

Let's do the math:

AC/20 = 20 damage x 14 shots = 280 damage over 56 seconds.
SRM4+SRM6 x 200 missiles = 25 damage x 20 volleys = 500 damage over 80 seconds.
3 Medium Lasers = 15 damage every 3 seconds.... forever.

SRM6x2 x 200 missiles = 30 damage x 16 volleys + 20 x 1 volley = 500 damage over 68 seconds.
4 Large Lasers = 27 damage every 3.25 seconds... forever

CTF-2X Lg Las3a

CTF-2X Lg Las3b

The large lasers have more damage potential over a similar time period as well as over a longer time period because you don't lose as much damage potential by going out of ammo.

Beyond that you have to look at the Double Heat sink issue. The heat sinks you can put in your engine are truly double heat sinks. The ones you buy and install in your mech are 1.4 heat sinks. So, you want the most heat sinks in your engine as weight will allow you. Std275 = 1 (including the Std280), Std300 = 2, Std325 = 3, etc.

You also have to consider range. The AC20 build is limited to 270 meters for max damage with all weapon systems. Though closer is better for your SRM spread. The speed you lose makes you worse at hitting things that are up close and circling you with your AC20 and SRMS, but good with tracking on lasers. The 3 large laser build has better range so you can pound away as they approach and then better speed when they get into your SRM range to make sure more of your missiles land on target.

The build with an AC20 is just numerically inferior in every way to the 4 large laser and 2 SRM6 build in a 2X.

Edited by jshill78, 14 January 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Hammerfinn]

The 2x is my favorite mech right now, and shockingly I run it pretty close to stock.

STD 280
DHS
Endo
LLas
2MLas
2 SRM4 (2t ammo)
UAC5 (3t ammo)

It provides nice, strong damage over all ranges except extremely long. It runs a tad hot brawling, and if you have a bad jam-day on the UAC it can ruin a match, but DANG. I usually end up first on my team with this build, and score at least a kill even in a loss. I tend to sit back and guard and watch for where the brawl happens, then ride into the fray and kick in some faces.

[Eisenhorne]

jshill,


The problem with the build you posted is artemis. Instead of using Artemis, use those extra 2 tons for 2 more tons of AC/20 ammo. This is the build I'm using. I named the variant the "Prometheus", as in the brother of Atlas, because the weapons configuration is very similar to a brawler atlas.

CTF-2X Prometheus

with 28 rounds of AC/20 ammo, you are unlikely to run out before the match is decided.

Also, your ignoring the heat output of 3 large lasers. Even with 20 DHS, you'll get in maybe 4 salvos of all 3, then have to cut down to chain firing or using 2 at a time. This will increase the dispersion of damage across the enemy mech, making it take longer to kill something.

Light mechs are also a problem. Personally, I find it significantly easier to bullseye a light mech running around me with an AC/20 than to hit it with large lasers and cause meaningful damage, because if the light pilot is any good, he'll only be in my field of vision for a very short time.

Both builds are viable, and the LL variants are better for mid ranged fire support. But if you want a true brawler CTF-2X, then the AC/20 variant is the way to go.

[Pando]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1856aab27f84f65

For examples.

Edited by Pando, 14 January 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[jshill78]

It's really all preference until you get to the math of it all. I don't like going 70 kph. I think that's too slow to brawl in. 82-86 is the absolute minimum for true brawling. Anything slower take too much maneuvering to be efficient with shots. All that maneuvering exposes too much back to your enemy.

Example: at 84 kph and above I can circle with a Raven and line up both my arms and torso on him. I can't do that on anything slower without having to opposite twist, expose my back and line up a consistent counter rotation shot considering current netcode.

Also in weapons testing. With the same heat sinks on a mech 2 Large Laser are better than 3 medium lasers in Damage per Heat per second. Tested with an empty config and constant firing in both alpha and chain fire. The 3.25 cooldown is suffienct to vent the 2 extra heat of the weapon systems.

3x Medium Lasers = 15 damage and 12 heat every 3.00 seconds.
2x Large Lasers = 18 damage and 14 heat every 3.25 seconds.

[Eisenhorne]

70 KPH is too slow to brawl by yourself, but in a role supporting an atlas, I find its generally fine. You don't want to get too far from them anyway.

2 Large Lasers are slightly better than 3 mediums, true, but with the 2 larges firing you can't also fire an AC/20. In high-heat situations (like caustic, or in an extended battle) the AC/20 phract comes out ahead.

In the end, both variants are viable, and its probably down to personal preference. I'd love to 1v1 you to prove it one way or the other, if they ever allow 1v1 matches

Edited by Eisenhorne, 14 January 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[jshill78]

It'd be a boring duel. I'd keep positioned between 350 - 450 meters+ and that'd be that.

My mech is about 16 kph faster than yours.

Edited by jshill78, 14 January 2013 - 10:23 AM.