72 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

As any study of Military history would show (and I'm am not trying to make fun of any of you with this) certain tactics and devices come in and out of favor as people devise counteres to them - 'Tanks' have been around in one form or another since at least the Roman times.
Our modern tanks have different limitations, but the function is the same - heavy armor.

Likewise, tanks are being countered by aircraft currently, similar to how the balista countered the Roman Phalanx.

Above and beyond that, what has yet to be brought up is the timeline involved - this is set more than 1000 years from now, if it is even supposed to be in 'our' world or an alternate universe.
Who Knows what has changed in the way things work in that time, they obviously have better radiation shielding than we can even dream of currently!

[MagicHamsta]

DuSucre, on 14 January 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

But in no way I would IRL design a combat vehicle like a humanoid battlemech... It's just plain stupid.

http://www.sarna.net...l_(Battle_Armor)
Too late.

[Dizzywig]

Metal Gear Peace Walker explained this, before!

[Dirus Nigh]

Wildhound, on 14 January 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

What counter will people develop for a human exoskeleton? A larger exoskeleton with bigger weapons.

The same counter we already have for vehicles, armored vehicles, and tanks.

[Shade4x]

http://en.wikipedia....al_War_Machines

the whole debate and points

[The Basilisk]

Beeing modular helps a lot to survive.
What is a Tank or an other motorized weapons carrier basically?
Its a bubble of hard steel with squishy or explosive somethings in it.
So if you breach the armor of a tank or a weapons drone its instant dead in most cases.
To get through a thick armored, massive construct like a mech you have to use weapons that are concentrating much energy to one point.
Thats deadly for the Tank.
But for a Mech ?
A Mech may miss a limb or loose a weapons pod.
So what.
It walks on.
To get a mech down you have either to kill the Pilot, its engine or both legs witch are the second most shielded areas of the construct.
A standart concept tank is much easier to kill.

Edited by The Basilisk, 20 January 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[Dauphni]

Dirus Nigh, on 19 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

The same counter we already have for vehicles, armored vehicles, and tanks.

More Dakka?

[Bagheera]

Nehkrosis, on 14 January 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

so, my friends have been trying to convince me that although its a cool universe, there is little sense in designing GIANT battlemechs that are Bi-pedal, over simply having GIANT tanks.

help me out here guys

Because in Sci-Fi from the 1980s, cool factor trumps practicality each and every time.

[nostra]

Don't forget the fact that many 'mechs serve an alternative purpose to just combat. Those with manipulator hands (or better yet, industrialmechs) can be used for loading and unloading freight and so on. Plus, the shape of humanoid mechs lets them do such things as crouch behind cover (uh...not in this game of course, but in some of the fiction), and the fact that they have mobile arms with weapons on them is more sensible than a tank with like...five gunners each in their own differently-rotating turret.

[MagicHamsta]

nostra, on 20 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

and the fact that they have mobile arms with weapons on them is more sensible than a tank with like...five gunners each in their own differently-rotating turret.

Why can't we has 5 gunners in a mech, each in their own limb?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Each with the equivilent gunnery potential of multiple tanks, you still prove the point of mechs being more flexible in SOME ways than tanks

-edited skill for potential

Edited by Shar Wolf, 20 January 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Sandslice]

Nearly five years ago, someone said this of combat walkers. I'm fairly certain Battletech was on the mind of the author:

Quote

Walkers will not be the uber-weapons they are commonly portrayed as being; countermeasures to them will be as standard as to tanks today, with the result that walkers will be a component of a combined-arms strategy rather than being the standalone strategy. In particular, walkers (in theory) could serve well as anti-air, mobile artillery, and skirmisher roles, as well as taking over the tank's niche in some limited-mobility situations where tanks cannot easily be deployed. In any case, they will be likely supported by infantry and/or other vehicles, including tanks themselves.

This was part of a series on looking at sci-fi cliches, which included the anime/BT tendency toward walkers / 'Mechs being dominant war machines in the fictional culture.

[Anudiz]

The Basilisk, on 20 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

So if you breach the armor of a tank or a weapons drone its instant dead in most cases.

Yes, when you manage to penetrate a tanks armor with even one shot its likely to be disabled.

The Basilisk, on 20 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

To get through a thick armored, massive construct like a mech you have to use weapons that are concentrating much energy to one point.
Thats deadly for the Tank.

No, no, no and again: No.
You assume that a mech is thick armored, it is in a video game or in the BT universe, however its NOT gonna happen in real life unless humans discover some amazing new materials which weigh 1/10 of nowadays armor but protect 10 times as good.
And even then, there is no reason why a tank shouldnt get the same new material and outshine the mech again.

A tank got a relatively small surface size you need to protect and cover with heavy armor.
A mech like in the BT universe got at least 10 times the surface area of a tank.
Thus youd need 100 times more armor to get even close to how durable mechs are in BT universe.
This would however make the mech insanely heavy, a tank weights 60t to 80t usually, a mech would weigh at least 500t to fit the internal structures and that freakin bunch of armor. Good luck with that bro.

Lets assume you managed to create a mech that fits all that armor AND can still stand.
Youd get stuck with it after your first step, because the ground just cant support the weight.

Okay, lets assume you managed to somehow stand on the ground.
Youd need a whole Power Station to accelerate it to 5 kp/h

We assume again, you actually got a fusion reactor inside the mech that can power it.
Your mech will have extreme difficulties to withstand any impacts without falling over, from yourself and from your enemies.

And again, assume you created that excellent gyro that negates any impacts.
The enmy spotted you from half across the world in an instant.
Congratulations you just spend 100.000.000.000$ on the production of a Battlemech that will be bombed to death in approx. 2 minutes, by the 1000 enemy tanks that you could build with that absurd amount of money.

The Basilisk, on 20 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

To get a mech down you have either to kill the Pilot, its engine or both legs witch are the second most shielded areas of the construct.
A standart concept tank is much easier to kill.

A standard concept tank in todays real world is way more durable in every possible aspect than a mech of the BT universe could ever be.
It wont fall over by any tiny impact, wont be penetrated by every shot flying towards it, wont be detected in half a second, wont cost 100.000.000.000$ to build and wont need a powerhouse to work.
The mech would actually have close to no armor at all, just because of its absurd size. or it would only be armored at the absolutely most needed spots. But that doesnt help much.

Edited by Anudiz, 20 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Nehkrosis, on 14 January 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

so, my friends have been trying to convince me that although its a cool universe, there is little sense in designing GIANT battlemechs that are Bi-pedal, over simply having GIANT tanks.

help me out here guys

Well, from what I've read of the BattleTech universe, the building and development of 'Mechs all started from the need for labor force multipiers on colonial worlds. Industrial Mechs filled the void. And so as the Industrial Mechs got more sophisticated, the military got more interested in converting the mech designs for combat. Thus the first BattleMech was born soon after.

The Mackie, as the Sarna page says, was built to project "the ultimate manifestation of Hegemony military might," in other words it was a weapon designed more to induce terror and show off, not necessarily win battles and wars for you, but it was a trend setter!

Although the Mackies seemed more suited to be in a military parade or to be part of an occuping garrison on a planet where the locals would not have the equipment to fight back, the concept of a BattleMech came into demand by the Great Houses to also show off their own wealth and might.

BattleMechs as a result kinda remind me of the Full-Plate Armor Knights used in the Middle Ages, and seem to have been used as such in the BattleTech universe.

[Kiiyor]

Well, seeing as an Abrams can hit targets reliably out to about 4500m, at full speed over uneven terrain... and the phenomenal advances in weaponry in the BT universe means the average engagement range is around 300-500m, there really isn't a comparison.

Even though they could make ranges more realistic, I imagine a video game where you fire on an atlas that is three pixels tall wouldn't be all that engaging.

[Pain Killer]

Kiiyor, on 20 January 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

I imagine a video game where you fire on an atlas that is three pixels tall wouldn't be all that engaging.

Perhaps, you could have some really nice optics and image enhancement hardware to compensate for the three pixel height effect.

[Dauphni]

After following those links, it seems to me that Mechs (or at least walking combat vehicles) could have some battlefield role. In a combined arms situation, they could be used as a mobile over-the-horizon rocket artillery platform. Obviously they'd lack the armour of a main battle tank, but the increased mobility should be able to let them hide and move around a lot easier, especially in areas with a lot of cover like forests. You might want to establish air superiority first, though.

[Adridos]

A battlemech could really find a role even in today's combat. Just the fact you only need one man to pilot it as opposed to a whole crew you need in a tank would be useful, not counting the fact you need to train more people and feed more of them.

The problem is how hard on reasources to make them when you can make more tanks for the same cost. Yes, in a situation where funds are out of teh equation, they are definitely a better choice than a tank, but those were, while poossible, never reached.

Edited by Adridos, 21 January 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[Elizander]

Nehkrosis, on 14 January 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

so, my friends have been trying to convince me that although its a cool universe, there is little sense in designing GIANT battlemechs that are Bi-pedal, over simply having GIANT tanks.

help me out here guys

Stepping on a truck is more satisfying than just rolling over it.

[POWR]

Mechs don't make sense, but who cares?! They're awesome fantasy figures that we can play around with in our videogame, something that noone will ever try in reality. Perfect game material is what they are. Like spacecombat.