261 replies to this topic

[RedDragon]

HRR Insanity, on 14 January 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Paul, here's how you fix the weapons:

MGs - just up the damage to 1-2 dps.


Problem solved.

Insanity

Are you nuts? Large lasers have barely a DPS of over 2 and you want to make the MG deal that much damage?

I find Paul's idea quite interesting, we have to see how it works out. MGs are not meant to be high damage dealers. They are auxiliary weapons (yes, for mech combat, but still only auxiliary). They are meant to be fired while your other weapons cool down or are destroyed. And that's where Paul's idea comes into play. You fire your main weapons at the target while continuously pelting it with your MGs. While you other weapons recharge, the MGs may crit something in the progress. Given, in some cases it's not worth waiting for any component to be destroyed, but in other cases it's well worth it. Ammo will instantaneously blow a side torso and an arm; when a main weapon (AC/20 or Gauss) is hit, you don't need to further target that area etc. Also think of the head - how many times did a lucky shot destroy the armor on the enemy's head but you couldn't hit it again with your large weapons? The burst-firing MG may very well score some crits in this case.
Long story short, the MG doesn't need to be viable as a damage dealer. It is an auxiliary weapon and Paul's way of approaching it seems promising in this regard.

[SpiralRazor]

HRR Insanity, on 14 January 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

This makes weapons/armor survive a bit longer; usually substantially longer than that torso section will... because the damage to the internal structure is going to take out ALL the weapons/equipment in that section when it blows out.



Unless you're going to hose down a section for 3-4 seconds... and by that time, you should have already blown it out if it had anything that mattered in it.



This is a worthless effect. Even if MGs/Flamers destroy an item in a section without armor with every hit it won't make these weapons viable. By the time the armor in a given section is gone, that section and everything in it is going to be destroyed within 2-3 seconds.

Asking someone to devote 1-1.5t to the 'chance' of being able to strip weapons/equipment in the rare instance that there is a armor-less section with a useful item remaining vs. actually being able to do damage ALL the time... is pretty much an intelligence test that most people will pass... by not taking flamers/MGs.

Paul, here's how you fix the weapons:

MGs - just up the damage to 1-2 dps.
Flamer - The flamer should decrease the heat effeciency of the target's heat sinks for 5 seconds by 5-10% per flamer. If you have 10-20 flamers on target, then it will not dissipate heat. Otherwise, it will, but much more slowly.

Problem solved.

Insanity

I have to agree......upping the dps to the Machine Gun is KEY...and THEN it can actually ALSO deal non trivial damage to component.

The flamer shouldnt be doing ANY extra damage to internals....It needs to effectively increase the targets heat or ability to shed heat while doing little armor damage and *normal* internal damage. Why in hell are you thinking of by having it deal extra internal damage? Ummm..what?

No, this is just another senseless diversion from table top. Stop being lazy.

[FrDrake]

As people have accurately stated above this does not make machine guns/flamers uber weapons or compareable to the regular weapons on most loadouts. What this does is put them back where they should be, niche lightweight weapons that light/medium mechs can toss on to add some utility.

Also the person who says outer armor missing means impending component removal you are wrong. If you are getting focus fired that hard then you were already dead whether or not they had machine guns. Personally I like the idea of making them utility weapons instead of dmg weapons (although I'd like it more if flamers did what they should and toast/shutdown the guy getting flamered).

[Bitslizer]

You forgot to factor in that the MG do multiple hits per seconds

stjobe, on 14 January 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

I argued against this change in this thread. At length. From several points of view.

Basically, there's a couple of problems with a crit multiplier:
1. The MG is still useless for the first two-thirds to three-quarters of a match. Why not take a weapon that's useful for the whole match instead? (Trick question; you have ballistic hardpoints and the next weapon up weighs six tons without ammo).
2. Unless you make that multiplier something on the order of 20 times the current damage, it won't be enough to "shred items". 20 times the current damage is still only 0.8 damage per bullet, or 8 damage per second. If everything crits, which isn't normally the case.

In fact, this is the case with 20 times normal crit damage (1 second of firing):
5.8 non-crits for 0 damage
2.5 single crits for 2 damage
1.4 double crits for 2.24 damage
0.3 triple crits for 0.72 damage

Grand total: 4.96 damage - or slightly less than a medium laser hit.

Is that what one calls "shredding items"? Doing medium laser type of damage?

No, PGI. When you buff the MG, please do it properly.

it actually make real life sense, with armor breached, the flame can now reach inside and burn the Myomer, control modules and all the other goodies

SpiralRazor, on 14 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I have to agree......upping the dps to the Machine Gun is KEY...and THEN it can actually ALSO deal non trivial damage to component.

The flamer shouldnt be doing ANY extra damage to internals....It needs to effectively increase the targets heat or ability to shed heat while doing little armor damage and *normal* internal damage. Why in hell are you thinking of by having it deal extra internal damage? Ummm..what?

No, this is just another senseless diversion from table top. Stop being lazy.

[DrxAbstract]

If the MG/Flamer begin acting in such a way, i foresee Heavies and Assaults, the latter more so, losing a bit of luster. Even after getting through their armor, their internals HP allow them some longevity, specifically the CT. All you have to do is take out the engine, and if the MG/Flamer become premier Internal 'shredding' weapons, the big guys are going to go down quicker now that you dont have to go through both their armor and, typically, the full breadth of their internals HP.

I cant decide if that's a good or bad thing, since Lights (And some Mediums) could then fully embrace their 'Harasser' role (Good) by being capable of disabling targets more effectively, while the big guys become more susceptible to them (Arguably bad).

This sort of dilemma, and many others, is heavily dependent on a properly functioning hit detection and netcode system, which until corrected will only add to the Light mechs are 'OP' stigma.

[Bitslizer]

Heffay, on 14 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

I wish we could crit actuators. Imagine a dragon with a hip actuator broken in one direction and the shoulder in another.

I think that's on the wish list WAY down the road, but its something the dev want to implement eventually if they can find the time to do it

[Chemie]

regarding critical hit,

Can someone explain why I always get that annooying "critical hit" red flashing warning when I get shot in the back even though I still have armor in all sections of the mech? Almost the very first rear shot causes the system to say critical hit but how does that happen with armor there?

[SpiralRazor]

Novawrecker, on 14 January 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Terrible idea. What's to stop mechs that mount 4 ballistics to carry your version of the MG? That would mean that for 2 mere tons, you have someone shooting your for 4-8 DPS for 0 heat ....

very, VERY bad idea.

2 may be high, but 1 is certainly nowhere NEAR OP.

4 to 8 dps for zero heat? With 4 ballistics slots and from 90 max?? LOL>....what a horrendously wasteful use of 4 BalSlots. I run close to heat neutral everywhere but on Caustic and im putting out a hell of a lot more then 4-8 dps from 500+....wow....so bad. Great troll build though.. May be mildly effective on Cicada. If i saw this on a Jager or Cataphract I would report that person for assisting the enemy. Yes, yes I would.

[Bagheera]

Rippthrough, on 14 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

A mech usually dies seconds after being cored anyway, or it runs away.

"Cored" usually means dead. As in CT totally blown out internals and all.

I've finished countless matches with exposed internals - especially on my ZombieBacks. And far better players than I have done the same.

[Budor]

How will engine crits be handeled? Any changes or still only adding to the now missing repair costs?

Any buff is a buff, will judge once live.

[Bitslizer]

Its critical "DAMAGE" not critical hits, basically when your armor turn red, that warning comes up to indicate imminent armor breach

Chemie, on 14 January 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

regarding critical hit,

Can someone explain why I always get that annooying "critical hit" red flashing warning when I get shot in the back even though I still have armor in all sections of the mech? Almost the very first rear shot causes the system to say critical hit but how does that happen with armor there?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Jade Kitsune, on 14 January 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Personally I feel you're completely underestimating the ability's this will bring to the table in the form of teamwork.

Or maybe you're right, maybe what we need is for this game to once again, devlove into PPC-Gauss- poptart warrior: online.

So because MGuns require teammates so the MGuns can virtually do nothing, they are somehow worth it?

The simple fact is, this game has 2 win conditions, and one specifically that is shared by both game types: to kill all on the opposing team. Unless MGuns make destroying cored sections (not weapons or equipment) easier than through damage, that tonnage will always be better spent towards raw damage weapons. The quickest way to neutralize a target's firepower or equipment by the time that section is cored, is through damage, not wasting time on crits.

This is the whole reason all past games have devolved into giant alpha-strike contests, because they are the most efficient design. MWO has not magically changed this mentality either (Gaussapults, AC20apults, and Splatapults oh my).

[Tennex]

Dakkath, on 14 January 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

It'd be nice to give them more range. I know this goes against TT rules, but in all reality, the MG should shoot farther than it does, but just less accurate the greater the range.

Allowing your mech to cool down while you use the MG's on a heavily damaged sections is a great idea. I like the new critical hit stuff. (just want more range on the gun).

same with LRM/SRMs. they shouldn't all sudden die off at max range. the majority of missiles should have exploded by then but not all at the exact same time.

looks wrong and feels wrong.

[Bitslizer]

No change from what's already implemented now, engine have 15HP, you must deal 15HP worth of critical hit damage in order to destroy the engine

Budor, on 14 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

How will engine crits be handeled? Any changes or still only adding to the now missing repair costs?

Any buff is a buff, will judge once live.

[stjobe]

Bitslizer, on 14 January 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

You forgot to factor in that the MG do multiple hits per seconds

Only if you didn't read my post.
20 * 0.04 = 0.8
0.8 * 10 = 8
8 * crit distribution = 4.96

So, anyone want to bet that the crit damage multiplier won't be anywhere near 20x?

[General Taskeen]

Jade Kitsune, on 14 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean it's not valid. I mean, frankly, this change would actually warrant me using build ideas that utilize MG's or Flamers as something of a "finisher" weapon, or something to use while cooling down on a hotter build.

Just because you don't like the OP's idea, doesn't mean it's not valid either.

MG/Flamer will remain useless against armor in a Mech vs. Mech game. Sounds legit. /Sarcasm

The idea of a useful MG/Flamer, with better numbers, and even giving them cooldowns, has already been discussed to death. Evidence of these weapons being good in other game titles, such as Mech Warrior 3, also begs the question why they can't be here. When there are Mechs being added into this game (SPD-5K/CDA-3C) that essentially rely on small ballistics like an MG, with their default configurations, then there is an obvious issue of balancing.

Let's take an under-gunned example like a SPD-5K, with 2 MG's, and 1 Medium Laser - in Default Land. With 1 laser, a pilot gets to try whittling down opponent's armor just so they can use their other 2 'primary' weapons (1 ton plus ammo), in the hopes all they can do is crit Mech items with them.

[Bitslizer]

well the Medium laser do have a 3 seconds cool down and heat, so that's like 1 MG = 4 ML chain firing on internals? I have no problem with a 20x multi if that's what it take to make the MG/Flamer anywhere near useful

stjobe, on 14 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Only if you didn't read my post.
20 * 0.04 = 0.8
0.8 * 10 = 8
8 * crit distribution = 4.96

So, anyone want to bet that the crit damage multiplier won't be anywhere near 20x?

Edited by Bitslizer, 14 January 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[stjobe]

Here's how you buff the MG into usefulness: Make it do 1.2 DPS. That's it. It won't very often do more damage than a Small Laser (1.0 DPS) because it is a continuous-fire weapon. As for boating, no current or planned 'mech has more than four ballistic slots. Would you consider four Small Lasers overpowered?

The idea of crit weapons is perhaps a good one, but the MG isn't the weapon to do it on. It's useless at the moment, and it needs to be made useful in its own right, not just as a complement to a "real" weapon.

Edited by stjobe, 14 January 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[Budor]

Bitslizer, on 14 January 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

No change from what's already implemented now, engine have 15HP, you must deal 15HP worth of critical hit damage in order to destroy the engine

"Critical damage to the side torso hit boxes of XL engines deals damage to the engine as a whole. However, it should be noted that, currently, critical damage to your engine will not disable it, but simply add to your repair bill. This is likely to change when we do the pass on the health values."

From: http://mwomercs.com/...get-back-to-us/ Post #19

Does critical dmg lower engine hp to 1 but not disable it? I dont really get what this means...

Edited by Budor, 14 January 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[AC]

The Op has it right. MG need to actually do damage. Why would I pack in machine guns and ammo when I could just take more legitimate weapons and use them to destroy that section out right. That is what is going on here. So I strip the armor from a RT.... why would I **** around trying to destroy components in that section when I could just simply destroy the whole section.

In BattleTech, machine guns did just as much damage as a medium laser. Why can't we simply make them do what they are suppose to?