87 replies to this topic

[Xandralkus]

I've known about ECM and its incredibly OP state for a while, so when driving my ECM Atlas, I normally just switch it to counter at the start of the match and RUIN some unfortunate Raven/Cicada pilot's day by taking away their cookies of OP-ness.

Anyway, I ran into a catapult. He fires LRM's at me. I decide to give the ECM a shot and switch to disrupt mode. Even in my ludicrously slow 100-ton assault mech, I sidestep his LRM barrage completely.

Poor sod. No player should have the capabiity to undo another player's actions like that. There were problems before, with LRM boats having unlimited free reign over open spaces, attacking targets that could not possibly retaliate...but this is just as bad. I can push a button and become completely and totally immune to LRM's.

Someone wake me up when ECM no longer sucks. Until they fix this, I'm done with MWO.

[Ohari]

You know.. funny thing is that I used to think that people complaining about ECM being OP were just whiners, but I was running a brawling Cataphract..with no LRMs. Lately I've been trying out the Awesome.with LRMs. Now I see what people have been complaining about. It really does completely negate LRM use. I mean others can have ECM and put it on counter, but that only neutralizes one ECM. Often times a team may have 4 or 5 ECMs and the other team not have any or just 1.

I have seen some good suggestions out there like improving NARC so that it cuts through ECM. Another was to make it so that ECM generates a constant heat...effectively increasing the base heat levels of an ECM mech.

I do know that I wont be running a LRM heavy mech much until something changes.

[MasterBLB]

LRM boats are still useable if they are equipped with TAG,but chassises what can't take it (like cat A1) are in real troubles.
Same for streak users,but they are affected much more due to fact they are catched inside ECM bubble a way more often,and in that conditions TAG is useless.

Edited by MasterBLB, 09 January 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Karl Split]

ECM is unbalanced, it shouldnt be a total hard counter to missiles. Also missiles in indirect fire are op, they shouldnt dominate the whole battlefield

[DegeneratePervert]

Also probably gonna shelve this game for awhile.... just ran into a sync-dropped 8 man with 5 DDCs and 3 Raven 3Ls. We didn't even stand a chance, the enemy team was on us before we could even react, and they blew us away. I can take comfort in the fact that anyone willing to go to the trouble to set a sync like that up is either twelve, or has serious self-esteem issues.

[Syllogy]

If you want to shelf the game because you can't overcome simple obstacles, go ahead.

Me? I prefer to find a way to tear them apart.

Since ECM came out, my KD went from 2.5 to 4, and I primarily run an LRM Boat Awesome or a K2 w/ PPCs (when I feel froggy).

[Hotthedd]

DegeneratePervert, on 09 January 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

Also probably gonna shelve this game for awhile.... just ran into a sync-dropped 8 man with 5 DDCs and 3 Raven 3Ls. We didn't even stand a chance, the enemy team was on us before we could even react, and they blew us away. I can take comfort in the fact that anyone willing to go to the trouble to set a sync like that up is either twelve, or has serious self-esteem issues.

Might I offer an alternative explanation?

It has been said that the best way to get rid of a bad law is to enforce it vigorously. Therefore they may be drawing attention to the problem so that it might get fixed. Then again, they may have self-esteem issues.

I went ahead and got a Raven 3L. It is so overpowered as to be not very fun to play.

[Xandralkus]

Hotthedd, on 09 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Might I offer an alternative explanation?

It has been said that the best way to get rid of a bad law is to enforce it vigorously. Therefore they may be drawing attention to the problem so that it might get fixed. Then again, they may have self-esteem issues.

I went ahead and got a Raven 3L. It is so overpowered as to be not very fun to play.

ECM makes the game boring, unintuitive, and unrewarding when you're the player using it.

ECM makes the game positively infuriating when you are the victim of ECM use.

No matter how you measure it, ECM is a lose-lose situation for all those involved.

Edited by Xandralkus, 10 January 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Making ECM something that is built using different parts for different effects and then limiting the number of parts so not everyone can have everything would solve most of the problems.
That way not every ECM mech would
-jam your radar
-act as a safety blanket from LRMs and SSRMs
-not be targetable at long distances
-not appear on radar
-prevent LRMs and SSRMs from locking on anything, if the ECM mech is within 180m of the affected mech
-act as a counter to other ECMs
Did I miss anything?

[Syllogy]

Garth confirmed yesterday that no ECM changes are on the books for now.

His reasoning behind this was sound:

Despite the extremely vocal posts on the forums, ECM is still only averages 1-2 per team in PUG matches, and only 3-4 per team in 8v8 matches, with declining numbers every week.

If ECM was truly overpowered, those numbers would be at least doubled.

[Xandralkus]

Syllogy, on 10 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Garth confirmed yesterday that no ECM changes are on the books for now.

His reasoning behind this was sound:

Despite the extremely vocal posts on the forums, ECM is still only averages 1-2 per team in PUG matches, and only 3-4 per team in 8v8 matches, with declining numbers every week.

If ECM was truly overpowered, those numbers would be at least doubled.

Devs, your reasoning is flawed. Math does not work that way.

There are 51 mech variants presently in the game, four of which are capable of mounting ECM. That means 12.75% of mech variants are capable of mounting ECM. Assuming anything even close to decent game balance, there would be a roughly even distribution of variant usage among players, with no statistically significant spikes or dropoffs of usage among variants.

However, PUG ECM usage varies between 12.5% and 25% ECM usage by population. When ECM usage spikes to 25% on ANY regular basis at all, that is an unacceptably massive deviation.

8-man Premade group ECM usage varies between 37.5% and 50% ECM usage by population - and this is the population of highly competitive gamers, thus giving us a MUCH CLEARER PICTURE of the state of game balance than casual gamers ever will. When 37.5% to 50% of competitive gamers choose only 12.75% of the potential variants available in the game, that means the game has warpspeed-faceplant-failed at providing meaningful balance and player choice.

I have empirical mathematical proof that ECM is not even close to balanced. The devs can say whatever they want, but it will never make 50 = 12.75

Edited by Xandralkus, 12 January 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[CaptainEnglish]

The problem is that in undoing ECM you return LRMs to their total battlefield dominance.
I'd suggest the following changes:
Reduce ECM to a probability of disrupt on a cycle time of, say, 5 or 10 seconds. Each cycle, there's 50:50 chance ECM will function in its current form or do nothing. Counter ECM works 100% of the time. This way, 1 mech with ECM on counter can neutralise two or three mechs with ECM on disrupt if he's lucky, rather than simply being useless.
To make up for this, you then reduce LRM flight speed. This will give heavier mechs a chance to move out of the way if they're well piloted, and make LRMs harder to use against light mechs while preserving their ability to do huge amounts of damage to a poorly exposed or overhwhelmed target. This should achieve the desired effect of ECM without the current issue of ECM being ridiculously over effective.

Edited by CaptainEnglish, 12 January 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Kaijin]

CaptainEnglish, on 12 January 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

you then reduce LRM flight speed

Sorry, but are you serious? LRMs already fly 15% to 25% as fast as they should, given the fact they they're rocket-powered. Fast light mechs can out-run them.

[Rashhaverak]

Xandralkus, on 12 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Devs, your reasoning is flawed. Math does not work that way.

There are 51 mech variants presently in the game, four of which are capable of mounting ECM. That means 12.75% of mech variants are capable of mounting ECM. Assuming anything even close to decent game balance, there would be a roughly even distribution of variant usage among players, with no statistically significant spikes or dropoffs of usage among variants.

However, PUG ECM usage varies between 12.5% and 25% ECM usage by population. When ECM usage spikes to 25% on ANY regular basis at all, that is an unacceptably massive deviation.

8-man Premade group ECM usage varies between 37.5% and 50% ECM usage by population - and this is the population of highly competitive gamers, thus giving us a MUCH CLEARER PICTURE of the state of game balance than casual gamers ever will. When 37.5% to 50% of competitive gamers choose only 12.75% of the potential variants available in the game, that means the game has warpspeed-faceplant-failed at providing meaningful balance and player choice.

I have empirical mathematical proof that ECM is not even close to balanced. The devs can say whatever they want, but it will never make 50 = 12.75

The above reasoning is also flawed,

Saying that ECM should only be seen 12.75 percent of the time because that is the percentage of mechs that can carry it is not a reasonable assertion.

When the command module comes out, it will come out for only select mechs. Should the command module be considered over powered if one appears in every lance? That would be 25 percent, double what is postulated above as a proper average. On the other hand, if a command module is a useful component to an integrated lance, one might expect that it would be present in each lance, and in fact might t always be present in a full group. I'd be willing to bet that we see an explosion of command module mechs for the first few weeks of it's introduction.

If a limit of 12.75 percent was to be considered as the line of acceptability for what is overpowered and what is not, that would mean that only one mech in a group of eight could run a particular item. Two mechs on a team running something is considered OP? At it's face that logic seems somewhat arbitrary and shallow.

On the other hand, look at the devs logic. Every new thing that comes out will be given emphasis by the players, at least until they find out if it's any good. After the "new item glow" wears off, there comes the real phase of exploration where players see how the new stuff integrates into their strategy and tactics. They start to figure out the balance of the thing within their group. They might start with four out of eight, then after a while decide that some added LRM support would be nice (usually decided after your butt is kicked by a team that is better optimized). Eventually everyone figures out what the right balance is. For ECM, it would appear that we are well into the tuning phase, with the balance currently running to one, two or three on a team of eight, depending on what particular style of game play the team has. If other statistics are taken into consideration, such as number of kills by an ECM mech, or win/loss compared to number of ECM mechs on a team, then a more in depth and considered judgement can be made.

You couldn't enter a drop a few weeks ago, when the stalker was first introduced, without running into half or even whole teams of stalkers. However, over time the stalker population has declined, and while I still see more than one in nearly every drop, I don't see them as OP.

Given that we still have many other new components, modules, mechs, maps and weapons still to come, I would not be too overly hasty to nerf ECM. Particularly if only one or two mechs in a match are running it.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 12 January 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[FireDog]

Ok guys, If you really think that ECM has not unbalanced the game so much, give all the missile boats Home-On-Jam missiles and see it if it's still so popular to run around in a mech with a 2 slot, 1.5 ton missile magnet turned on....

Having something so small be capable of this much force multiplication is a joke. Every mech on the battle field would be carrying it without a doubt. Note, most all current fighter/attack aircraft have self protection ECM gear. It can provide some protection but in no way makes its carrier immune to sensors/missile attacks. Very few aircraft have area effect jamming capability either. (See EA-6B Prowler/EA-18G Growler) And their two ECM/ESM systems take up most of the aircraft's weapons platform capability.

At the very least, ECM should be personal protection only with a much larger and heavier ECM unit (least say 11 tons and eight slots) able to perform area protection. ECM in it's current configuration is well worth the size and weight of an AC10 plus ammo, probably more like an AC20 (10Slots/14Tons).

BTW, the US has had anti-radiation missiles since the early 70's. Just google the Strike and HARM missiles. Note, The before mentioned Prowler and Growler aircraft make great HARM shooters because they carry pulsed up sensor suites and have crews trained to pick out the best targets.

[Chou Senwan]

By the rationale of the technical flavor text, ECM blares out confusing signals, right? Out to 200 meters?

So shouldn't you be able to see and target ECM mechs as long as you're outside 200 meters?

Shouldn't your missiles be able to lock on, fire, and track the target until they get within 200 meters (at which point they just coast and maybe still hit)?

Also, if ECM can counter my radar at 800 meters, why can't counter-ECM disrupt ECM at 800 meters? Why do you have to be within 200 meters of another ECM-carrier to disrupt them?

[Demoned]

If your thinking ECM is OP and you want the devs to do something about it please like,

Tolkien's question in ask the Devs 30.

page1 about half way down you can't miss it
and i think like many others this needs an answer, that's why we are trying to get as many likes as possible.

post is here.

http://mwomercs.com/...30-new-formula/

thanks all

Edited by Demoned, 12 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

FireDog, on 12 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Ok guys, If you really think that ECM has not unbalanced the game so much, give all the missile boats Home-On-Jam missiles and see it if it's still so popular to run around in a mech with a 2 slot, 1.5 ton missile magnet turned on....

Having something so small be capable of this much force multiplication is a joke. Every mech on the battle field would be carrying it without a doubt. Note, most all current fighter/attack aircraft have self protection ECM gear. It can provide some protection but in no way makes its carrier immune to sensors/missile attacks. Very few aircraft have area effect jamming capability either. (See EA-6B Prowler/EA-18G Growler) And their two ECM/ESM systems take up most of the aircraft's weapons platform capability.

At the very least, ECM should be personal protection only with a much larger and heavier ECM unit (least say 11 tons and eight slots) able to perform area protection. ECM in it's current configuration is well worth the size and weight of an AC10 plus ammo, probably more like an AC20 (10Slots/14Tons).

BTW, the US has had anti-radiation missiles since the early 70's. Just google the Strike and HARM missiles. Note, The before mentioned Prowler and Growler aircraft make great HARM shooters because they carry pulsed up sensor suites and have crews trained to pick out the best targets.

"Listen-Kill (aka L-K or LK) missile technology is an upgrade to missiles (both LRM and SRM) to improve their accuracy. This is achieved through a small computer and homing device in the missile's head that allows it to home in on the electronic noise of a BattleMech or tank. While very successful at first, the effect of L-K technology was quickly negated by jamming equipment tailored to counter it."
"By the mid-3040s, L-K missiles were common, but almost all units in the Inner Sphere were equipped with ECM gear to negate their effect by that time. Since L-K missiles are still more expensive than standard missiles but have essentially lost their advantage, it is largely a moot technology afterward (except perhaps against very old 'Mechs without ECM refit)."
"Clan units are automatically immune to the effects of Listen-Kill technology."

"Anti-Radiation Missiles are special-purpose missiles which can be fired from SRMs, MMLs and LRMs. Similar to Listen-Kill Missiles, ARAD Missiles are able to home in on active electronic systems, however unlike L-K missiles they do not sacrifice their range or damage potential, and are not easily confused by ECM. They are however incompatible with Streak or Artemis IV systems. ARAD Missiles were first developed by Clan Smoke Jaguar in 3055 and put into production by 3057, followed by the Free Worlds League in 3065 and 3066 respectively."
"ARAD Missiles receive beneficial to-hit modifiers against targets using one of the following: Active Probe, Artemis IV, Blue Shield Particle Field Dampener, C3 systems, communications equipment (1+ tons) or ECM suites. Against targets not using the above, ARAD Missiles suffer negative to-hit modifiers."

The tech does currently exist in-universe (in the form of L-K Missiles), but their effectiveness is limited.
The improved version (ARAD Missiles) are unlikely to be available in-game for quite some time.

However, there are indications/implications that Heat Seeking Warheads may be largely immune to the effects of ECM Suites, but they can be brought off-course by lighting other things on fire and their tracking can be impared by simply running cool relative to the local environment (that is, they could/would be less useful in Caustic Valley than in Frozen City).

And, of course, Dead-Fire Missiles would be immune to ECM.

Plans for alternate ammunition types were confirmed in both Ask the Devs 10 and Ask the Devs 17.

[Sandslice]

Syllogy, on 10 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Garth confirmed yesterday that no ECM changes are on the books for now.

His reasoning behind this was sound:

Despite the extremely vocal posts on the forums, ECM is still only averages 1-2 per team in PUG matches, and only 3-4 per team in 8v8 matches, with declining numbers every week.

If ECM was truly overpowered, those numbers would be at least doubled.

The reasoning feels more like handwaving. ECM's intent was two fold: to nerf 4xLRM-15 Awesomes, and to nerf 6xSSRM-2 Catapults (along with certain fringe LRM Catapults thinking they would try to be Bane 2s.) LRMs are nerfed to an extent: IDF is now impossible without specific kinds of other players' help: you would have to hope that someone is reducing their personal damage to be a "team player" and have TAG, or else have ECM and sacrifice their own god-bubble to counter - something they might be doing anyway.

LRM DF requires you to use TAG, decreasing your backup weapons for when LRMs run out or stop firing; or highly skilled "firing at the hex" and hoping they don't move so much as 30m during the missile flight.

SSRMs were not nerfed at all; rather, they were confined (in most circumstances) to the two light 'Mech builds best able to exploit it - namely, the ECM variants of the Commando and Raven, which also happen to be the Commando and Raven variants with the most missile hardpoints. This is significant, as the only counters to ECM's SSRM lockdown are staying 190 meters away from the enemy (with both of you running over 135kph,) or using ECM Counter (and hoping that you aren't facing multiple ECMs, the excess of which will re-jam you.)

About the only valid reason for maintaining current ECM would be this:
"We are currently developing the rest of the electronic warfare system, and would humbly request your patience. Once we have a chance to see how well these changes will balance ECM's obvious strengths, we will decide whether ECM needs to be revisited."

"Working as intended, because not everyone is using it yet" is a pod of juffo-wup.

[Kobura]

I don't know what the **** statistics they're looking at but it's a rare cold day in hell when I see fewer than 3-4 ECM on one side in an 8v8.

I know the Sharks consider it a necessity to swim no less than 2 Raven/Cicada 2 D-DC.

Oh, a nice side effect of this fuckery: When was the last time you saw an Atlas other than a D-DC? I killed a few RS (rapidly) a week ago or so. Haven't seen a K since ECM came out, literally not one. Not many D's other than Founders (including mine when I'm feeling lucky). Way to extinct the varied assault population...