168 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

O'RLY?! you're funny...or just blind.

50 players on average are not a thread. Some of them even played both games. Both games are free. This is the second time, in this thread, I am told to look closely by someone who doesn't do it himself.

[Purplefluffybunny]

You are wrong Egomane. There are posts from other developers disagreeing with Kamikaze and Criminal. There is a post on these boards from yet another developer that is more inline with the version of events that I and others are expressing here; namely that the dev team, distinct from Kamikaze and Criminal, would rather continue with the mod. It is established that Kamikaze and Criminal were the ones to make the decision with regards to MWLL.

I even said that I accept that no direct legal threat was made though earlier you even agreed that PGI prompted Kamikaze and Criminal to act i.e. initiate cessation of development on MWLL. Both the owners of MWLL work at Crytek, you know this and this is established fact. Crytek lease CE3 to PGI. One does not really need to spell out the type of problems here if MWLL is viewed as comparable to MWO and a competitor.

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

50 players on average are not a [threat].

Oh really? Why don't you go read what Russ has said and convince him of that?

EDIT: Just to add, I know that no matter who held the IP rights, MWLL would force closure once a commercial mechwarrior project was under way. It seems the counter to mine and others putting this closure in a negative light, a negative accent if you will, seems to assume that the current IP rights system and how IP rights are commercially exploited via monopoly is a nominal and accepted state of affairs, a taken for granted value-set; 'just the way it is, no one to blame, the natural order that it is'. People could have chosen not to exert their rights and allow MWLL to continue but that is not the value-set that they operate on.

EDIT2: I hope you meant threat and not thread

Edited by Purplefluffybunny, 17 January 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[Gouty]

Wow, speculation is rife from both sides in this thread!
But hey, at least it hasn't descended into a cesspit of vile malice and insults like this one. So I think I'll post here.

Lets just focus for a second on what we know:

• Wandering Samurai Studios (henceforth referred to as WSS) held a non-commercial license
  
• The owners of WSS (Criminal and Kamikaze) are employees of Crytek
  
• PGI is a customer of Crytek
  
• PGI and Wandering Samurai Studios produce a similar game
  
• PGI contacted WSS to discuss the future of the franchise
  
• WSS is now not continuing to develop the similar game

What we don't know:

• What was said
  
• Did they go themselves or were they pushed - How much PGI influenced their decision (if at all)

Make of that what you will, and some people will come to their own conclusions.

Some transparency from both parties would be greatly appreciated.
Remember, we are only seeing a version of events. A theme that seems to run deep within this environment

Edited by Gouty, 17 January 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Egomane]

Purplefluffybunny, on 17 January 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

EDIT: Just to add, I know that no matter who held the IP rights, MWLL would force closure once a commercial mechwarrior project was under way. It seems the counter to mine and others putting this closure in a negative light, a negative accent if you will, seems to assume that the current IP rights system and how IP rights are commercially exploited via monopoly is a nominal and accepted state of affairs, a taken for granted value-set; 'just the way it is, no one to blame, the natural order that it is'. People could have chosen not to exert their rights and allow MWLL to continue but that is not the value-set that they operate on.

EDIT2: I hope you meant threat and not thread

Of course I meant "threat".

To your first edit (I wont comment on the other part of your post, as we start going in circles): Yes it is sad, that most companies strive to achieve monopoly. We don't know for sure that this was the case, this time. I wont dismiss the posibility, but as I said before, until I see facts, I have to go with the official statements from both sides in making my judgement. (Edit: You see? Circels! )

Gouty, on 17 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

i.e. did Crim and Kamikaze come to the conclusion that it was not a smart career move to continue the project, or was it heavily suggested from the other side (or was it 6 of one and half a dozen of the other?)
Make of that what you will, and some people will come to their own conclusions.

Until that point I agreed with your post. But you started to paint a point of view here that will cloud the vision of others.

Gouty, on 17 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Some transparency from both parties would be greatly appreciated.
Remember, we are only seeing a version of events. A theme that seems to run deep within this environment

How do we know, that we don't have transparency already and what both parties said is the whole truth?

Edited by Egomane, 17 January 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Adridos]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

How do we know, that we don't have transparency already and what both parties said is the whole truth?

Part of the story is missing. One side says they never told the other anything about closure and the other says that the closure happened because someone forced them.

[Egomane]

Adridos, on 17 January 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

the other says that the closure happened because someone forced them.

Which was later revoked as a misunderstanding of information.

Edited by Egomane, 17 January 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[Gouty]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Until that point I agreed with your post. But you started to paint a point of view here that will cloud the vision of others.

Fair point, and that was not my intention, attempting to stay objective. So I've edited how it was phrased.

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

How do we know, that we don't have transparency already and what both parties said is the whole truth?

Well, that is the point I guess. But surely you could see why PGI would want to restrict what was said, or formulate half truths if they did have a hand in the discontinuation of the fan project (and why WSS owners would go along with it)

It would go some way to explain why the MWLL Project Directors post on this subject was censored on their own forums. But heyho, we are drifting into speculation, at least it is extrapolated from the visible evidence.

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Which was later revoked as a misunderstanding of information.

...by the founders, not developers who have made an initial statement...

[Billy Taylor]

[Egomane]

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

...by the founders, not developers who have made an initial statement...

... based on incomplete information. At least that is what the founders said.

We can do this all day and still go nowhere. We can create theories as much as we like. As we wont get insight into the exchanged conversations (personal and mail), we have to go with the official statements. Anything else is a whitch hunt.

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

... based on incomplete information. At least that is what the founders said.

Sure, that is what they've said. Strange thing is that statement about "misinformation" came from the Founders - not from the author of the initial statement about the reasons of MWLL closure.

[Cik]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

... based on incomplete information. At least that is what the founders said.

We can do this all day and still go nowhere. We can create theories as much as we like. As we wont get insight into the exchanged conversations (personal and mail), we have to go with the official statements. Anything else is a whitch hunt.

"we have to swallow the official story, otherwise i wouldn't be able to ******* PGI! and that would be terrible!" you are beyond deluded. someone like you does not deserve authority. please leave.

[Egomane]

Cik, on 17 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

you are beyond deluded. someone like you does not deserve authority. please leave.

Because I am trying to stay impartial? Because I am not drawing to conclusions without evidence?

You need to come up with something better!

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Because I am trying to stay impartial? Because I am not drawing to conclusions without evidence?

What evidence you need? Fingerprints? Or press-release sorf of "Yeah, guys - MWLL closed because of our pressure"?

[Egomane]

Any evidence will do! But there is none! That is what I am saying the whole time!

You accuse PGI of being the one and only reason of why MWLL is no longer developed (not closed, mind you), but you fail to provide proof besides arguments fetched out of thin air.

I adressed all your questions and I have remained neutral all this time. Now I want you to adress my questions!
- Is an accusation enough to condemn someone?
- Is an accusation proof?
- Is the lack of proof for one viewpoint enough to prove another viewpoint (for which no other proof exists either)?
- Would you change your point of view if you had access to all communication between PGI/IGP and Wandering Samurai, or would you dismiss it as falsified, if it showed PGI/IGP as not guilty, because you don't want it to be true?

Free your mind!

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Any evidence will do! But there is none! That is what I am saying the whole time!

So, the word of developers, who have no any business interest in discrediting "rights holders" - not the evidence?

Edited by Scar, 17 January 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Egomane]

Scar, on 17 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

So, the word of developers, who have no any business interest in discrediting "rights holders" - not the evidence?

No evidence! As it was stated that these statements were made because of incomplete information.
The developers do not know everything that transpired between PGI/IGP and Criminal/Kamikazi. It's hearsay at best!

[Scar]

Egomane, on 17 January 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

No evidence! As it was stated that these statements were made because of incomplete information.

What exactly "incomplete information"? Huh? And do you really belive that developers don't know what's exactly going on?

[Purplefluffybunny]

I have freed my mind Egomane, thank you very much. You still can't spin away the fact that most of the MWLL devs and fans wanted to continue, whilst the owners shut it down in part after a conversation with Russ. Indeed Russ states himself he wanted MWLL to cease development. You can't spin all that away because that is what has been officially said on the record.

[SquareSphere]

I have to laugh at this whole conversation. If I were to be completely impartial the first thing to identify is that BOTH side are NOT impartial OR completely removed from bias. Therefore NEITHER side is fit to judge the other on the basis of having the burden of proof.

Egomane with his association as a community moderate is associated with to PGI through the action of being a volunteer moderator (i'm assuming he's a volunteer moderator and not a paid one. Either way the association is there either though the act of volunteering or that of compensation)

The majority of the opposition are long standing members of the MWLL community. (I'll also point out some of the detractors, including myself hold founder tags that prove at one point we supported PGI, which could be used weakly as "evidence" of non bias )

What's happening is both sides will talk in circles trying to force the other to "show proof" when neither can produce a "true" piece of evidence from one of the original parties. PGI has their version as posted by Russ, to counter that would not be in their best interest PR wise. Crim/Kami both work at Crytek have also put their non detailed statement as well. It would not be in their best interest to counter or divulge details from a professional point of view.

Edited by SquareSphere, 17 January 2013 - 08:04 AM.