15 replies to this topic

[MasterGoa]

Hi all.

I see a lot of ECM discussion, raised some myself.

I joined just after ECM was introduced, but I also watched
a lot of Youtubes on LRMs before ECM.

Lets start with LRMs.

Before, they were at 2 points damage.
They were set and forget. That's right, Lock, shoot
and immediately go do something else and those
missiles would run around chasing you.

That was Over Powered.

Now: You HAVE to MAINTAIN lock, either directly or
with a team mate, for those missiles to hit. What this means is that either you
or your team mate has visual contact with the opposing mech, so, is
of course open to retaliation. Team mate moves away, lock is lost, missiles
hit the ground...
Also each missile lost damage to 1.8. (1.7 cited also a few times)

Artemis makes it so that 100% of your missiles hit the target.
But you need VISUAL line of sight for it to work.

Even with ECM gone, LRM dominance has changed very much.

Now lets take a look at ECM.
It was brought forth to counter LRM multi directional attacks.
This was, IMHO, a mistake from the start as all you needed is tone down
LRMs like they did. I own an LRM boat and I agree with the extensive
nerfing it went through...

If the ECM followed BT rules, I would be totally OK with it. But ti does not.
BAP is supposed to counter ECM, but it doesn't. ECM will cancel any lock.
Remember that lock is there to help your team mates as well. It's part of
the game and it's not about the "oh you cant use real weapons" whining.

ECM also totally disables missiles, even SRM, inside the bubble, but outside
as well. Anyone who fired SRM without lock know very well they spread out like
shells on a crooked shotgun... So only maybe 20% hit.

ECM also prevents tracking team mates under the bubble, even with BAP.
This is just insane. Only TAG outside the bubble can get a lock Which is OK
in itself, but I should not have to tag every opponent inside that bubble...

So why is ECM soooo OP that, in polls on this forum, 81% of people
want it nerfed or removed?

Because the original issue that brought ECM HAS been fixed. LRM boating needs
much more talent and situational awareness that it did before. However, ECM stays
the same to fight a non-existant foe.

PGI, Gart, devs, my suggestion is to START with BT rules and tweak from there.
We are Mech Warrior players, in my case from Monde Virtuel, more that 15 years ago,
and I came back from gaming retirement specifically to play Mech Warrior.
As most other people here. So why not cater to your target crowd?
Is things go well and everyone has fun, we will spread the word much
better than any press release and WAAAYYYY better than negative reviews
from places that understand MWO's imbalances.

Start with Battle Tech and tweak from there. No one here will complain because
THIS IS why we are here...

Good luck.

[Erasus Magnus]

by tt rules bap isnt supposed to counter ecm.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

[Havyek]

You weren't watching MWO on YouTube then.

At no point in MWO have LRMs EVER been set and forget. A missile lock has always been required to ensure that they hit the target. Now, LRMs can fire when a lock is set, lose the lock, then reacquire it again before the missile land and they'll change direction to hit the target.

SRMs have ALWAYS been dumbfire, have ALWAYS spread out like a shotgun. Artemis equipped SRMs tighten the grouping up a big, and the trajectory has changed so they no longer do a X cross like they used to do (which could be timed and ranged so all missiles hit a compact area).

ECM does not affect anything outside of it's 180m bubble, except that it reduces the ability to target the 'Mech using R from 750m down to 450m IIRC and negates the BAP (which sucks, I agree).

ECM was brought into the game because as of this time of the game it's available, not to combat LRMs or SSRMs as many people seem to believe.

[kilgor]

But ECM is proabably a bit more powerful than it needs to be, just as LRMs still are. ECM doesn't need to cloak a group and LRMs, for their weight and frequency of fire, do quite a lot more damage compared to a weapon such as an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle within the same time frame. I do think LRMs should be brough back down to 1 damage per missile, then the cloak can be removed from ECM but still have the longer lock on time. They can always have BAP nullify the lock on time increase when outside of the ECM range and thus improve everything all around. Sure, LRM boaters won't be happy, but to offset that, they could reduce the ammo rearm cost when they reintroduce R&R. Yes, R&R makes sense. Battletech has been around for decades and the rules have been updated to ensure a good balance, so when you take some things out or change values, it breaks other aspects.

[Felix]

What you might have been seeing was a bug where LRMs would strike ANYTHING and it would register it on your hud as a hit.

Back then you could fire a salvo into a building and the game would show the pulsing red icon of direct hits

[Yokaiko]

BDU Havoc, on 16 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

You weren't watching MWO on YouTube then.

At no point in MWO have LRMs EVER been set and forget. A missile lock has always been required to ensure that they hit the target. Now, LRMs can fire when a lock is set, lose the lock, then reacquire it again before the missile land and they'll change direction to hit the target.

SRMs have ALWAYS been dumbfire, have ALWAYS spread out like a shotgun. Artemis equipped SRMs tighten the grouping up a big, and the trajectory has changed so they no longer do a X cross like they used to do (which could be timed and ranged so all missiles hit a compact area).

ECM does not affect anything outside of it's 180m bubble, except that it reduces the ability to target the 'Mech using R from 750m down to 450m IIRC and negates the BAP (which sucks, I agree).

ECM was brought into the game because as of this time of the game it's available, not to combat LRMs or SSRMs as many people seem to believe.

Pretty sure in like July that LRM did just that, and had a near 90* down pictch, if you couold get them over the terrain in front of you they hit. That was pre damage counter.

[Havyek]

Yokaiko, on 16 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Pretty sure in like July that LRM did just that, and had a near 90* down pictch, if you couold get them over the terrain in front of you they hit. That was pre damage counter.

Negative.

LRMs have never been fire and forget (I've been playing since June). What I suspect you're referring to is what was mentioned above, when LRMs would indicate damage simply from hitting ANYTHING (buildings, the ground, friendlies etc). LRMs have always stopped tracking once lock was lost. They however did (and I believe still do) take wicked 90 degree turns once lock is reacquired.

And yes, they were pretty OP when they dropped 90 degrees downwards clearing all obstacles between you and the target.

Edited by BDU Havoc, 16 January 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Yokaiko]

BDU Havoc, on 16 January 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Negative.

LRMs have never been fire and forget (I've been playing since June). What I suspect you're referring to is what was mentioned above, when LRMs would indicate damage simply from hitting ANYTHING (buildings, the ground, friendlies etc). LRMs have always stopped tracking once lock was lost. They however did (and I believe still do) take wicked 90 degree turns once lock is reacquired.

And yes, they were pretty OP when they dropped 90 degrees downwards clearing all obstacles between you and the target.

I've been playing since JUne too, I remember when they changed it so a lock loss was a miss.

I don't think they do crazy stuff on re-aq anymore, people said they do but I haven't managed to do it.

[StalaggtIKE]

BDU Havoc, on 16 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

ECM does not affect anything outside of it's 180m bubble, except that it reduces the ability to target the 'Mech using R from 750m down to 450m IIRC and negates the BAP (which sucks, I agree).

No it is from 800m to 200m. It more than sucks, it's down right ******.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 16 January 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Trev Firestorm]

BDU Havoc, on 16 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

You weren't watching MWO on YouTube then. At no point in MWO have LRMs EVER been set and forget. A missile lock has always been required to ensure that they hit the target. .

Not terribly important but this is untrue, early closed beta you could volley off and switch targets->fire before the other target gets hit without penalty...

[Mawai]

Hi,

Just a few comments ...

1) I think the main motivation for ECM was a direct counter to streak-cats, boating of SSRMs, and teams of LRM mechs. It reduced the effectiveness of LRMs which were also a bit overpowered when used by several people on a team with appropriate spotting. However, I think the most effective element was to discourage the use of SSRM mechs which were much more effective than their LRM counterparts on a 1:1 basis.

2) ECM reduces the detection range of mechs under its umbrella to 200m. Not 450 or some other number. I believe that ECM is supposed to reduce the detection limit to 25% of the sensor range. Base sensor range is 800m ... thus a mech under an ECM can be detected from 200m. BAP and the sensor upgrade module are supposed to increase the sensor range to 1000m in the case of the advanced sensor upgrade (25% increase). In theory this should stack with ECM so that an ECM protected mech should be targetable from 250m but there are reports that this is not working.

3) When ECM is removed from the field, LRMs, especially when used on several mechs, are still exceptionally effective. In one match I was driving an Atlas across the river on River City ... I was targeted by some number of LRM boats and blown up before I could reach any sort of cover. In a match last night, an Atlas with 3 LRM20's, TAG, ER PPC, accounted for over 1200 damage and 5 kills against my PUG team (we didn't have much in the way of ECM).


Bottom line ... in my opinion ... LRMs, SSRMs and ECM all need a balancing pass.

[BLUPRNT]

I have a conspiracy theory.
When the Clan invasion begins (and it will if your paying attention to the forums), I have a theory on how this will take place and if I'm right its brilliant on PGI's part.
If the Clan tech is as powerful as the players claim it is, then everything you think is OP now is the only thing that is going to save your ***.
Stop asking for nerf's and buff's cause you'll be asking again when they come. Wait and be patient.
When LRM's had that devestating flight path you all wanted a nerf and got it. Had you waited for ECM you may have found them to be just about right since now if you get a lock your lucky if they hit ECM or not. ECM just makes locks harder. You all got what you asked for.
Shall we mention all the crying about streaks now.
I do believe Clan tech has a Streak 6.
Current ECM anybody?
Send out the ECM light and report back!
I'll stand right hear behind the DDC and wait!

Edited by BLUPRNT, 16 January 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[LarkinOmega]

Yokaiko, on 16 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I've been playing since JUne too, I remember when they changed it so a lock loss was a miss.

I don't think they do crazy stuff on re-aq anymore, people said they do but I haven't managed to do it.

I had them do a 90deg turn right into the back of an ECM Raven on Caustic one time. It was hilariously satisfying.

[MasterGoa]

Bluprnt, that is indeed a good theory. However, when people though the LRMs were to OP,
why could PGI simply not say ECM is coming?

Maybe the Bloodhound Probe will come and actually detect mechs behind multiple
rows of buildings...

I have do admin I WILL try a 36 SSRM Cat when the time comes...

[yashmack]

yay, another one of these posts...

Edited by yashmack, 16 January 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Culler]

All I'm saying is that ECM is so good you wouldn't leave the mechbay without it on any mech capable of carrying it. BAP on the other hand is pretty mediocre and almost never worth taking. If BAP countered ECM at close range the resulting situation would be a balanced effect/countereffect system. That seems like a good situation to me: one in which electronic warfare mechs have to load up on electronics to really be the best they can at it.