33 replies to this topic

[Postumus]

After seeing the proposed changes to machine gun crit mechanics, I'm still not convinced that it is going to influence most mechwarriors to slot one. The crit multiplier is a good idea, but an even better idea is to increase the machinegun damage to approximately that of a small laser.

In tabletop MGs fulfilled an anti-infantry role, but since the devs have stated that we are likely never going to see elementals a la MWLL, there isn't really a point to having an AI weapon. Instead the MG can be made to fill the role of the as yet non-existent light ballistic weapon.

There is no ballistic equivalent of the medium or small laser, or even SRM2, and adding one would allow light and medium mechs to incorporate ballistic weapons into their builds without planning entire mech around the weapon, as in the HBK-4G.

Like other ballistic weapons, the machinegun is limited by its ammo supply. A hypothetical buffed MG would still be balanced against a small laser due to its limited use. Finally, it would give the several mech variants with multiple ballistic slots in a single arm (DRG-5N, HBK-4G, RVN-4X) something to use besides just trying to fit multiple AC/2s.

[Snowcaller]

What I'd like is the option to buy two MG's as one weapon.
I even started a topic on it.

A 50% damage increase may be a little much, but with a dual MG mount, it becomes a viable option for a DRG 5N, Phract 4X with a slight buff.

[Regrets]

It takes approximately 3.5 DHS per SL to fire continuously for 15 seconds. Let's fudge it and say you never fire for more than 15 seconds have 4 SL and count the first 10 DHS free, Even then with roughly 13 HS, the 4 SM weight 5 tons and take 13 criticals.

I'm not saying MGs shouldn't be buffed out of their currently worthless state, but let's not get carried away and suggest they are supposed to be equal to SL, because they aren't.

Edited by Regrets, 14 January 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Oppresor]

Yes I 100% agree with this; I see the machine gun array as a CIWS for Assaults and maybe Siege (bigger than Assaults if they ever get around to creating one) Mechs. I really believe this is the way ahead for countering light units.

[Ascendent]

Agreed. They could be buffed even slightly more than an SL damage wise. Keep in mind a MG is a 1.5T investment (vs 0.5T for SL). And unlike other ballistics you have to stay on target continuously to do any meaningful damage. A crit chance increase alone will not save the MG. In most cases when you strip all of an enemies armor they're in real trouble already. Giving the tonnage to weapons that will strip the armor faster is more valuable at the moment (unless they have an increased chance to crit through armor, not after it's stripped). Also the lack of a useful ballistic for the 4 ballistic Cicada and other lighter mechs makes those hard points useless at the moment as OP pointed out. It would have to be tested to see how it plays out, but I for one have been thinking this would be a good solution for a while as well.

[ohtochooseaname]

If it had the same DPS as a SL, it wouldn't be OP at all. You would still have to keep the reticle on the target the whole time, and thus, it greatly reduces the ability to target a specific area (especially in a light). I don't even think it'd be OP if it were the same as a ML, since it requires 1.5 tons and 2 crits (though boating them reduces weight ratios). The short range and high damage spread make it so that it's a pretty wimpy weapon anyway.

[Regrets]

ZZZZ I guess no one reads the responses before asking for their buff.

[Hansh0tfirst]

A heat-neutral ballistic I could shoot all day with a ton of ammo that has the same weight, slot requirements and dps as a small laser?

As much as I'd love this for my RVN-4x, considering it takes roughly seven tons of (standard) heatsinks (not to mention as many critical slots) to make a small laser heat neutral, holy cow would that be OP.

[BL00D RAVEN]

what if after the crit buff they also make it so you can shoot down missiles

[Hansh0tfirst]

ohtochooseaname, on 14 January 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

If it had the same DPS as a SL, it wouldn't be OP at all. You would still have to keep the reticle on the target the whole time, and thus, it greatly reduces the ability to target a specific area (especially in a light). I don't even think it'd be OP if it were the same as a ML, since it requires 1.5 tons and 2 crits (though boating them reduces weight ratios). The short range and high damage spread make it so that it's a pretty wimpy weapon anyway.

Not sure how you think that limits a pilot's ability to target a specific area, unless you're confusing lasers with PPCs. Last time I checked you still have to keep the reticle on the target the whole time with energy weapons too (even pulse lasers).

Asking them to do the same dmg as mediums is just pure, unadulterated crazy. No offense.

[Strig]

Hansh0tfirst, on 15 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

A heat-neutral ballistic I could shoot all day with a ton of ammo that has the same weight, slot requirements and dps as a small laser?

As much as I'd love this for my RVN-4x, considering it takes roughly seven tons of (standard) heatsinks (not to mention as many critical slots) to make a small laser heat neutral, holy cow would that be OP.

7 heat sinks to be heat neutral .. hmm .. so almost every engine anyone slots these days and DHSs and you get 3 heat neutral Small Lasers with no added weight ...

... with no ammo tonnage ...
... or ammo eating up crit slots ...
... or ammo exploding ...
... or the need to keep constant fire on a single location for the entire duration ...

So since you might get 4 MGs on a mech this is somehow overpowering ? I mean usually only one or 2 ... 3+ ballistic slots you would waste on an MG is RARE.

Come on now .. .making the MG do DPS equivalent to a Small Laser would still make it a considerably weaker and less optimal weapon for 95+% of the mech chasis that could EVER be in the game.

[Regrets]

Strig, please read my post #3 ITT.

[Strig]

Regrets, I did read your post, but I must disagree with your premise.


Most mechs will have a 250 or larger engine if they can (only a commando and raven can't, and while some mediums and heavies might take lower rating engines, they are doing so to load much larger weapons and so don't really apply here).

Thus we have 10 in-engine heat sinks which will be DHSs (unless they are broke, but they will as soon as they can afford it since it is a very rare build that doesn't benefit from DHSs) netting 20 base HSs worth of cooling for no additional weight. Even if we don't we are not looking at more than 1 or 2 tons worth of heat sinks outside the engine.

Let us assume you have a mech with above average ballistic slots (3) (9 mechs have 1b, 9 have 2b, 3 have 3b and 2 have 4b). Most of those mechs have the same number or more energy hardpoints.

So if you fill 3 energy slots with almost perfectly heat neutral small lasers (7x3 = 21 basic heat sinks to be heat neutral according to Ohm's spreadsheet) we are at 1.5 tons and 3 crit slots (possibly more crits if you have a tiny engine)

For the 3 MGs we are also at 1.5 tons, but we require ammo (let's just say 2 tons even though that won't keep 3 MGs going for an entire 15 minute match).

[Regrets]

DHS are 1.4 x SHS. I don't think any of this works the way you think it does...

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Regrets, on 14 January 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

It takes approximately 3.5 DHS per SL to fire continuously for 15 seconds. Let's fudge it and say you never fire for more than 15 seconds have 4 SL and count the first 10 DHS free, Even then with roughly 13 HS, the 4 SM weight 5 tons and take 13 criticals.

Don't forget about engine heat sinks.
You can fire 6 alphas using quad ML before overheating if you have 250 rated engine with DHS upgrade and no additional heat sinks. You overheat after 7th alpha, it's about 27 seconds of continous fire. If you switch to chain fire your heat will be about 65% after 30 seconds of fire. Tested on River City Night, mech not moving.

Edit: devs stated that DHS built into engine are 2 times more efficient than SHS. So 250 engine DHS are enough to make SL heat neutral, or at least almost heat neutral.

Edit 2: Same build, ML replaced with SL, River City day. After 30 seconds of alphas heat reaches about 30%. When 4 SL are fired in chain mode heat rises to 1% and stays it all the time. Mech not moveing.

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 15 January 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Regrets]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 15 January 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Don't forget about engine heat sinks.
You can fire 6 alphas using quad ML before overheating if you have 250 rated engine with DHS upgrade and no additional heat sinks. You overheat after 7th alpha, it's about 27 seconds of continous fire. If you switch to chain fire your heat will be about 65% after 30 seconds of fire. Tested on River City Night, mech not moving.

Edit: devs stated that DHS built into engine are 2 times more efficient than SHS. So 250 engine DHS are enough to make SL heat neutral, or at least almost heat neutral.

I've run 5 ML stalker with ~22 DHS and I can assure you it doesn't work like this in practice. After 3-4 alphas you will be shutting down.

@DHS in engine, I didn't know this but again, try firing 5 ML 5x and see what happens.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

4 ML alpha:

4 ML chain:

4 SL alpha:

4 SL chain:


As you can see in lower left corner there are only 10 DHS.
Back to the point: buffing MG damage somewhere close to SL wouldn't make MG overpowered. For single MG you need at least 2 crit slots and 1.5 tons, for single SL you need 0.5 ton and 1 crit. Engine heat sinks are enough for it. Not to mention you can run out of ammo, and ammo can explode.

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 15 January 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Hansh0tfirst]

Strig, on 15 January 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Regrets, I did read your post, but I must disagree with your premise.

And respectfully, I must disagree with yours.

Let's take a look at my RVN-4X and apply your logic...

Okay, for starters I can't fit a 250 or larger engine, but I won't grouse over it. Let's pretend adding that tenth DHS (which is really only 1.4 times as efficient as a standard heatsink) outside my engine isn't a big deal, and that I'm effectively netting 20 base HSs worth of cooling for no additional weight.

Alrighty then, so now I can comfortably mount two small lasers (almost three!) and be heat neutral. And golly gee, look at that, the RVN-4X has two energy weapon hardpoints. There's six points of dmg per alpha I'm essentially getting for free (in regard to heat, anyway)!

So what about dem machine guns? Well lookie there... the RVN-4X also comes with two ballistic hardpoints! There's another six points of dmg per alpha I'm getting for free (assuming machine gun dmg was increased as proposed). Sweet! I've effectively doubled my firepower AND I'm *still* heat neutral without the addition of any significant weight or critical slot loss.

Sounds pretty great, right? (For my RVN-4X at least.) But wait, how does that stack up for a *very* similar mech (my RVN-2X)? Well let's see...

Hmm, the 2X unfortunately does not have any ballistic slots. Darn. But hey, it does support up to FOUR energy weapons. Woohoo! So can I still match the firepower of my 4X?! Yes!

But can I match its heat efficiency? Umm, nope. Not by a longshot.

Even if we presume to start with a net of 20 base heatsinks worth of cooling (which again, in reality we're not), now I've got to find room for an additional 8 base heatsinks of cooling just to be as heat efficient as my 4X (4 small lasers = 28 heatsinks for neutrality).

At 1.4x efficiency (again, the value of a so-called "double" heatsink outside the engine) that adds up to roughly 5.7 heatsinks. But let's be generous, round-down, and say it's only five additional heatsinks. That's not so bad, right? Only five tons... and FIFTEEN critical slots to make up the difference... in a 35-ton mech.

Are you starting to see where this is getting silly now?

[AlanEsh]

Crit-seeking will always be inferior to increased damage output. While you're trying to blow that mech's exposed parts with a randomly rolled crit, I'm removing the entire section with my increased damage. Double Increase the damage to SmallLaser*0.667 and call it a day.

Edited by Angelicon, 15 January 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[ohtochooseaname]

Hansh0tfirst, on 15 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Not sure how you think that limits a pilot's ability to target a specific area, unless you're confusing lasers with PPCs. Last time I checked you still have to keep the reticle on the target the whole time with energy weapons too (even pulse lasers).

Asking them to do the same dmg as mediums is just pure, unadulterated crazy. No offense.

I don't know about you, but as soon as my laser finishes firing, I'm free to...I dunno...get out of the way of the gauss rifle shooting at me without having to worry about where my reticle is facing.

I don't see why you all are hung up on heat neutrality. Whether or not heat neutrality is important is very build dependent because of the 10 DHS incorporated into most builds (excepting the commando). My perspective comes from lights/mediums because these are the units interested in carrying MG's. They'd be a waste of hardpoints in almost anything larger, with some rare cases. In a light, you basically have to keep on moving. It is very rare to be able to stand still against decent opponents.

This creates 3 basic cases of operation: the circle strafe of a slow mech, the circle strafe of two fast mechs and a run and gun.

1. The circle strafe of a slow mech: with SL's you get a 0.75 second burst every 3 seconds, which is great for targeting one torso section on each circle pass. With an MG with the same DPS as an SL, this would necessarily be spread out to other sections because the Mech is unable to target that section for >50% of the time. This is what I mean by the damage gets spread out.

2. The light mech circle strafe: This often has an elliptical pattern, which creates a firing solution only once every few seconds. Again, an MG is not really a problem if it has the same DPS as a SL because it's not going to be able to hit that whole time. In other cases, at least the MG provides some decent added damage, though would still not be nearly as OP as streaks are, and it would make them about as effective as a missile hardpoint instead of completely useless.

3. Run and gun...obviously, bursting is necessary.

The reason the AC2 is a complete and total piece of crap even though it provides as much dps as 4 small lasers with not nearly as much heat is that it spreads out the damage and doesn't provide any bursting whatsoever. The MG is even worse with this, so increasing its dps to that of a single SL or ML seems very reasonable to me (ML's aren't much more than SL's, btw). If you ended up having 4 of them with ammo for the sustained damage we are talking about it'd weigh as much as an AC2 without ammo, take up 4 ballistics slots, generate no heat, have no damage past 90 meters, and do as much sustained damage as a single AC2...which, if you've ever played with, is completely worthless.

You kill mechs and win games with burst damage, not sustained damage. And the current state of the MG is completely worthless because it is sustained damage at an incredibly low level, which has no use whatsoever.

So, I say give the MG a DPS of 1 (SL) or maybe up to 1.25 (ML) because it's really not as powerful as that seems based on all of your "heat neutrality" BS. That crap only matters if your standing still firing at your opponent, who is also standing still, and that's usually done at ranges outside the MG envelope anyway