72 replies to this topic

[Nehkrosis]

so, my friends have been trying to convince me that although its a cool universe, there is little sense in designing GIANT battlemechs that are Bi-pedal, over simply having GIANT tanks.

help me out here guys

[Broceratops]

there are places you can walk, but cannot drive

[Nehkrosis]

thanks man, thats 1.
i thought perhaps better range, more weapons...etc. i dont know.

[MadPanda]

I'm afraid your friend is right. Mechs don't make sense in real life. They only work in games and anime.

Broceratops, on 14 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

there are places you can walk, but cannot drive

Like what? We are talking about mechs here, not monkeys or goats. You can drive a sturdy tank anywhere you can walk a mech.

[Nehkrosis]

damn your flawless reason!
they also argued that youd barely survive the Gs of falling or jumping off a bridge in a mech.

[KerenskyClone]

MadPanda, on 14 January 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

I'm afraid your friend is right. Mechs don't make sense in real life. They only work in games and anime.



Like what? We are talking about mechs here, not monkeys or goats. You can drive a sturdy tank anywhere you can walk a mech.

Actually no you cant. You can drive a tank anywhere you can drive a tracked vehicle, certain terrain would be impossible to cross even for tanks, especially terrain that is at a large angle/slope. Weight distribution is another matter entirely though, it is disputable whether a 100ton vehicle could 'walk' on anything other than reinforced concrete without getting stuck in the ground.

There is another canon reason for mechs, many of them are capable of human like movements (something that is not simulated in this or any other Mecwarriorgame ) so they are able to engage in melee as well. The mechs are also highly manouverable, and capable of changing direction very rapidly or at least much more than any tank of comparable weight. This is also not simulated correctly in this or any other Mechwarrior game.

I will concede that the BT rules for weapons are actually very simplistic though and make no sense whatsoever. Long Range Missles with a range of 1000m? Yeah right.....

One other thing. Im not sure whether this is mentioned in Canon anywhere but the way I imagined that mechs developed is that first of all people invented advanced battlesuits (something that is on the verge of being used by the military today) which would be used by infantry in combat. As the suits were further developed, they got bigger and bigger so the infantryman could use heavier weapons in combat, eventually the larger suits got to the point where they could carry really heavy weaponry and so displaced tanks in combat....and presto....Mechs are born

Edited by KerenskyClone, 14 January 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Broceratops]

MadPanda, on 14 January 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

I'm afraid your friend is right. Mechs don't make sense in real life. They only work in games and anime.



Like what? We are talking about mechs here, not monkeys or goats. You can drive a sturdy tank anywhere you can walk a mech.

i dont think a tank would be able to make it up that comstar tower on forest colony for example.

but anyway as mentioned a lot of the BT technology is paper thin in terms of facts. all the weapons ranges suck more than a modern day rifle for example.

Edited by Broceratops, 14 January 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

something i always thought was pretty funny, that the best Machinguns we have right now have a 90 m range...

[DuSucre]

Well... Your friends are right.

Take a look at our real life tanks (weaponry and design) from WW1 till now, and you will quickly find why almost all battlemechs chassis are silly and dangerous designs...
Don't get me wrong, I love big stompy robots. And bi-pedal is better than wheels or tracks.
But in no way I would IRL design a combat vehicle like a humanoid battlemech... It's just plain stupid.

[KerenskyClone]

One other thing I just thought of. A tank cant exactly peek behind corners, crouch, or even go prone. Although they can go 'hulldown'.

[Kylere]

Battlemechs alone are like French Knights at Agincourt, they do not make much sense and there are a million low tech ways to completely disable them. The same is true for theM1A1 Abrams and the T-72. Battlemechs should be part of a combined force to make any sense.

The original game felt a lot more lostechy and they made more sense as a remnant device of past glory. Once the novels and such started adding working factories, newly made fusion engines, etc. it became silly. Even the wars are silly in light of how easy it is to gather resources in space once you beat the cost of overcoming the gravity well. Of course, a 2012 tech level Battletech would be boring because you would satellite designate opfor, hit each one with a TLAM(N) and end the fight,

[Fut]

It's tough to say whether or not a massive bi-pedal robot would be better at traversing difficult terrain than a tracked vehicle. In some situations I really think it could be possible though, I mean look at what DARPA's currently developing with their Big Dog robot. Sure, it's got 4 legs, but that thing can walk anywhere. Who knows where they'll take this thing in 10 years.

KerenskyClone, on 14 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

One other thing. Im not sure whether this is mentioned in Canon anywhere but the way I imagined that mechs developed is that first of all people invented advanced battlesuits (something that is on the verge of being used by the military today) which would be used by infantry in combat. As the suits were further developed, they got bigger and bigger so the infantryman could use heavier weapons in combat, eventually the larger suits got to the point where they could carry really heavy weaponry and so displaced tanks in combat....and presto....Mechs are born

This is how I see it happening too. Exo-Skeletons and powered armor that continually get bigger and bigger to add more weapons and gadgets, before you know it you're not really in a suit anymore - you're in a walking tank.

However, in the real world there's also a second path that can take us into a world with real Mechs. People seem to forget that BattleMechs are simply awesome. They'll be developed based solely for that reason, because some billionaires think they're amazing and they want one. I mean, check this thing out:



Sure it's got wheels, and the "weapons" are just jokes, but give it a few more years.

[MadPanda]

KerenskyClone, on 14 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Actually no you cant. You can drive a tank anywhere you can drive a tracked vehicle, certain terrain would be impossible to cross even for tanks, especially terrain that is at a large angle/slope. Weight distribution is another matter entirely though, it is disputable whether a 100ton vehicle could 'walk' on anything other than reinforced concrete without getting stuck in the ground.

There is another canon reason for mechs, many of them are capable of human like movements (something that is not simulated in this or any other Mecwarriorgame ) so they are able to engage in melee as well. The mechs are also highly manouverable, and capable of changing direction very rapidly or at least much more than any tank of comparable weight. This is also not simulated correctly in this or any other Mechwarrior game.

I will concede that the BT rules for weapons are actually very simplistic though and make no sense whatsoever. Long Range Missles with a range of 1000m? Yeah right.....

One other thing. Im not sure whether this is mentioned in Canon anywhere but the way I imagined that mechs developed is that first of all people invented advanced battlesuits (something that is on the verge of being used by the military today) which would be used by infantry in combat. As the suits were further developed, they got bigger and bigger so the infantryman could use heavier weapons in combat, eventually the larger suits got to the point where they could carry really heavy weaponry and so displaced tanks in combat....and presto....Mechs are born

I think the assumption is that the technology level is the same for mechs and tanks. So if the technology is current time for example, a mech build now would fall over when it needs to get off the sidewalk. If we raise up the technology and have nimble mechs that jump around like monkeys, then the tanks have evolved too and I'm imagining almost jelly like tracks on which move just like a plob of jelly covering any shape terrain. Mechs just can't win this argument, they are inpractical in real life.

[SixstringSamurai]

The legs them selves are its biggest weakness. You would also have to worry about stability during firing with a bipedal mech. Just look how much an Abrams or a Paladin rocks when it fires. You can repair a tank tread and change a road wheel in the field. Try fixing a mangled leg let alone operating the mech without both legs. You would be better served with a quadruped mech since it could survive damage to a leg. It would have the same platform to work with as a tank. Would have stability while firing and be able to cross terrain a tank simply could not.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 14 January 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

One advantage for battlemechs over tanks is that it would provide a more useful view of the battlefield, from a higher vantage point. Mech pilots would be able to see the wider tactical situation and react to it.

[sunprice]

Eisenhorne is right , the tanks would be destroyed before they can reach or even see the Mechs cause the Mech can see the tank clearly form a higher position .

In the warfare , it's not just about the mobility of the tank or battlemech , it's about you see your enemy first or they see you first . Sorry for my bad English .

[Jigsama]

sunprice, on 14 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Eisenhorne is right , the tanks would be destroyed before they can reach or even see the Mechs cause the Mech can see the tank clearly form a higher position .

In the warfare , it's not just about the mobility of the tank or battlemech , it's about you see your enemy first or they see you first . Sorry for my bad English .

I'd think that a 15m tall Mech would be pretty visible itself. A tank could actually be easier to camouflage.

[80Bit]

In real life, humanoid mechs would not be developed into giant 100 ton monsters, as everyone here points out. It just does not make sense.

It is quite reasonable to assume that eventually human sized exoskeleton suits will be developed however. In fact, this development has already started. http://www.youtube.c...berkeleybionics

Over time these exosekeletons will grow slightly in size, to perhaps add armor and weapon mounts. But they won't grow into giant robots. The ability for a solider to pack heavy armor and firepower, but still move around in a landscape of human scale, will be much more useful than trying to make a tank that walks.

[KerenskyClone]

SixStringSamurai, on 14 January 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

The legs them selves are its biggest weakness. You would also have to worry about stability during firing with a bipedal mech. Just look how much an Abrams or a Paladin rocks when it fires. You can repair a tank tread and change a road wheel in the field. Try fixing a mangled leg let alone operating the mech without both legs. You would be better served with a quadruped mech since it could survive damage to a leg. It would have the same platform to work with as a tank. Would have stability while firing and be able to cross terrain a tank simply could not.

Agreed. Two legged mechs past a certain size/tonnage are just silly. These would work best as very light or light mechs maybe that carry only recoil-less weapons. The really heavy mechs should be 4 legged, and ideally shaped like crabs. So basically like tanks only with legs instead of tracks

Now would that classify as a tank or a mech?

[Wildhound]

80Bit, on 14 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Over time these exosekeletons will grow slightly in size, to perhaps add armor and weapon mounts. But they won't grow into giant robots. The ability for a solider to pack heavy armor and firepower, but still move around in a landscape of human scale, will be much more useful than trying to make a tank that walks.

What counter will people develop for a human exoskeleton? A larger exoskeleton with bigger weapons.