39 replies to this topic

[shintakie]

One Medic Army, on 18 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

My point was that Missile hardpoints are currently scary in large numbers, especially on mechs with the tonnage to do things with them.
Just compare an A1 catapult to a C1 catapult.

And my point is that if it exists in the game it should serve a purpose. At the moment the 5H serves no purpose. It has the exact same hardpoint layout as another variant, but it has less hardpoints to use. That. Makes. No. Sense. Why waste programmin time creatin a mech that literally does not need to exist.

In fact, 3 of the 5 variants of the Stalker are redundant. Think about that. 3 of the 5 variants of a mech exist solely to grind xp to elite/master. How ridiculous is that.

Unrelated note. Why was this moved to the guide section? Its basically guaranteed to die now...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ursh, on 18 January 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

He faces few problems, since the internet in his country is routed through his country. Also, challenging yourself takes on new meaning when you are really far from the beta servers. I think you simply don't understand what it is to fire at people on a regular basis and simply have your hits not register.

I'm in Moscow, Garth isn't so far away, and is on the same national network as their servers. I routinely have 150-250ms latency, which means I actually have to aim at mechs that simply aren't where i'm shooting if they are practicing any kind of evasive maneuvers.

Thanks for providing playtips against complete f**king idiots and new players though, I really needed those. At no point in time had I ever figured out that missiles or projectiles had travel times. At some point in time though I had this dream that they would actually fire when i hit the button, and maybe even hit what I shot at.

They should pay him to fly to australia so they can see what its like fighting lights from there

shintakie, on 18 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Its basically guaranteed to die now...

thats why

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 18 January 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I think the 5H has more tubes in the arms, so it does have an advantage there. It can fire 30 missiles at once from the arms, rather than 20 for the other variants.
My personal thought it that it was intended to have more missile hardpoints, and was still added after the decision was reversed due to art assets and such already being done and the variant announced.
If it had been a 6m 4e variant, it'd probably be one of the most used variants, if not the most used.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 18 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

which one is completely useless when (not if) ecm is brought in again?

When ECM is brought back down (soon I hope) most A1s will probably go back to LRM/SSRM mixes, and still be viable.

[Kurshuk]

One Medic Army, on 18 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Can you imagine a Stalker with 6 SRM6s, AND 4 energy hardpoints on top?
Or 4 LRM15s, 2 SRM6s 3 Medium Lasers and a TAG?

Yes... and it's glorious...

Kurshuk

Edit: I should note that I've run an A1 with 6SRM6 for a long time and while it has disadvantages (effective range is around 25-100m) I just can't give it up because when I get suprised in the tunnel on frozen city, so does the person who surprised me.

Edited by Kurshuk, 18 January 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kurshuk, on 18 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes... and it's glorious...

Kurshuk

Kurshuk, on 18 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes... and it's glorious...

Kurshuk

I like watching the 6 PPC one on videos lol

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kurshuk, on 18 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Yes... and it's glorious...

Kurshuk

Edit: I should note that I've run an A1 with 6SRM6 for a long time and while it has disadvantages (effective range is around 25-100m) I just can't give it up because when I get suprised in the tunnel on frozen city, so does the person who surprised me.

my fave on that front is the 2x ac20 cat

[Regrets]

Pretty sure the gimp stalker has better torso twist or something like that.

[Vechs]

shintakie, on 18 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Off the top of my head head theres.

The Spider 5K: 4 arm mounted ballistics and 1 energy slot in the CT. No ECM. Lowest possible amount of JJs of all the Spiders. Currently useless till the MG buff comes in or as some ridiculous rooftop AC/2 sniper with **** all ammo.

Jenner JR7-K: There is absolutely no build you can make on the K that can't be also made with the D, but better. Its only plus is the extra modules, however at this point in the game modules don't make up for anythin.

Raven 4X: Hey looks. Its a 2L but with useless ballistic points and no ECM. Pass.

Cicada 2B: Not sure what the point of arm mounted lasers are when your arms don't turn farther than your body. I guess you can mildly make the argument that its "better" for aimin up or down, but thats flimsy at best. Outside of that, completely outclassed by the 2A in every may, minus modules. See the JR7-K why that means squat.

Cicada 3C: The slowest Cicada and it only has 1 energy slot and 4 ballistic slots. No ECM to cover these fairly glarin weaknesses.

Dragon 5N: Not really all that terrible, but its pretty gimmicky. With 3 ballistics in the right arm you're pretty much pigeonholed into a triple AC/2 setup and if you lose that arm your damage becomes so gimped that its laughable. If you don't pick a triple AC/2 setup then why the blue hell are you usin a 5N?

Stalker STK-3H/4N: Why do these variants exist in this game? Can anyone at all explain this to me? Any build you can make in those mechs can be replicated in either the 3F or the 5M, but you can do it better. I really really don't understand the thought process behind 4 variants to the Stalker and havin 2 of them exist purely to increase the grind to master. There is 0 other reason to take these mechs other than as a cbill/xp dump. They don't even have pointless extra module slots for when/if modules actually become useful enough to justify the lost damage potential from havin them.

Atlas AS7-K: Its an Atlas AS7-RS, but more expensive and yet somehow worse. You trade a ballistic slot for an extra AMS. This used to (barely) be a useful tradeoff when LRM's darkened the sky. Nowadays when ECM is so prevalent and LRM boats are rare the cost of that extra missile coverage is far far higher than the reward.

Thats all I can think of for now. All but the 3C, 4X, and the 5K aren't necessarily gimped outright, just gimped in comparison to other variants, but I still count them. However the 3C, 4X, and 5K really are quite gimped. I love my 3C, dont get me wrong, but its pathetically useless with MGs bein as pointless as they are now and is mostly just relegated to cheese builds like that ridiculous 4xAC/5 I saw a while back.

I logged in just so I could Like that post.

[Wrenchfarm]

shintakie, on 18 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Off the top of my head head theres.

The Spider 5K: 4 arm mounted ballistics and 1 energy slot in the CT. No ECM. Lowest possible amount of JJs of all the Spiders. Currently useless till the MG buff comes in or as some ridiculous rooftop AC/2 sniper with **** all ammo.

Jenner JR7-K: There is absolutely no build you can make on the K that can't be also made with the D, but better. Its only plus is the extra modules, however at this point in the game modules don't make up for anythin.

Raven 4X: Hey looks. Its a 2L but with useless ballistic points and no ECM. Pass.

Cicada 2B: Not sure what the point of arm mounted lasers are when your arms don't turn farther than your body. I guess you can mildly make the argument that its "better" for aimin up or down, but thats flimsy at best. Outside of that, completely outclassed by the 2A in every may, minus modules. See the JR7-K why that means squat.

Cicada 3C: The slowest Cicada and it only has 1 energy slot and 4 ballistic slots. No ECM to cover these fairly glarin weaknesses.

Dragon 5N: Not really all that terrible, but its pretty gimmicky. With 3 ballistics in the right arm you're pretty much pigeonholed into a triple AC/2 setup and if you lose that arm your damage becomes so gimped that its laughable. If you don't pick a triple AC/2 setup then why the blue hell are you usin a 5N?

Stalker STK-3H/4N: Why do these variants exist in this game? Can anyone at all explain this to me? Any build you can make in those mechs can be replicated in either the 3F or the 5M, but you can do it better. I really really don't understand the thought process behind 4 variants to the Stalker and havin 2 of them exist purely to increase the grind to master. There is 0 other reason to take these mechs other than as a cbill/xp dump. They don't even have pointless extra module slots for when/if modules actually become useful enough to justify the lost damage potential from havin them.

Atlas AS7-K: Its an Atlas AS7-RS, but more expensive and yet somehow worse. You trade a ballistic slot for an extra AMS. This used to (barely) be a useful tradeoff when LRM's darkened the sky. Nowadays when ECM is so prevalent and LRM boats are rare the cost of that extra missile coverage is far far higher than the reward.

Thats all I can think of for now. All but the 3C, 4X, and the 5K aren't necessarily gimped outright, just gimped in comparison to other variants, but I still count them. However the 3C, 4X, and 5K really are quite gimped. I love my 3C, dont get me wrong, but its pathetically useless with MGs bein as pointless as they are now and is mostly just relegated to cheese builds like that ridiculous 4xAC/5 I saw a while back.

Spider-5V deserves a place on that list right next to the 5K. Fewer energy mounts than the 5D version, placed in the chest to ensure a minimum number of possible options ("hum, do I take two MLAS or one LLAS type?") and without the ability to run ECM. Oh sure you can throw in some extra jumpjets, which is fun for all of ten minutes before you realize how many million Cbills you wasted just to jump to the top of the map.

I have no idea why they keep giving ECM to the best versions of each mech it's available for. It seems like such an obvious balance choice to limit it to sub-optimal mechs, trading bad hardpoints/options for the utility of ECM.

[BerryChunks]

Its becvause, like Ive said in countless other threads:

Lasers in this game are bad from Damage Over Time.
Lasers in this game are bad from Double ARmor.
Lasers in this game are bad from Huge Heat Implemented by PGI.
DHS were also nerfed.

Laser boats like laserback are still good because with them you can get focused damage for every tick where the lasers do damage. 1x8 damage is a lot better per tick than 1x2 damage.

Netcode lagshield business is also an issue, but lasers will still be a problem child even after netcode is fixed.

After nerfing heat effeciency so much, they're "looking into lowering heat of PPC and LL", so theyre disturbing the game even more instead of going back and fixing the root issue.

Double armor is 100% double protection. Double speed firing weapons are only POTENTIAL double damage, if they hit in the same spot, but they are definitely DOUBLE heat. Throw Damage Over TIme laser behavior on top of that mix, and see what happens..

[Gamgee]

Homeless Bill, on 18 January 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

The Spider you're referring to will be my new ride as soon as they buff machineguns. I do, however, agree that there are a ton of variants that serve no purpose other than grinding for Elite skills. They definitely need to do something to balance it out at some point.

Did you see the crappy proposed buff for machine guns? Ha, don't count on it. http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

Last post. Good luck with that.

Edited by Gamgee, 19 January 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[shintakie]

Wrenchfarm, on 19 January 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Spider-5V deserves a place on that list right next to the 5K. Fewer energy mounts than the 5D version, placed in the chest to ensure a minimum number of possible options ("hum, do I take two MLAS or one LLAS type?") and without the ability to run ECM. Oh sure you can throw in some extra jumpjets, which is fun for all of ten minutes before you realize how many million Cbills you wasted just to jump to the top of the map.

I have no idea why they keep giving ECM to the best versions of each mech it's available for. It seems like such an obvious balance choice to limit it to sub-optimal mechs, trading bad hardpoints/options for the utility of ECM.

Wait, the 5V has its energy hardpoints in the CT? What the flying buck?

Yeah...add that to the list of gimpy mechs. Definitely.

Can anyone think of Medium or Heavy mechs that are gimped? Outside of the Dragons (and a short time in an A1 back in closed beta when 6xSRM6 just became the new hotness) I haven't spent much time in them.

[Blossoming Tyrant]

shintakie, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Take off 1 of those missiles on either of those builds, add another energy weapon, and you just made a Stalker 5M.

As it currently stands there is no point to the Stalker 3H. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Zip. It needs extra missile hardpoints to at least give it some form of identity that can't be replicated, but better, in the 5M.

The 5M has 10-tube missile hard points on the arms, while the 3F has 20-tube missile hard points on the arms. The 5M has an additional missile point, but it's a 1-tube narc point that's not as useful.

It's not much, but if you plan on mounting a pair of LRM20's on a stalker, the 3F does offer some advantage.

[shintakie]

Blossoming Tyrant, on 19 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The 5M has 10-tube missile hard points on the arms, while the 3F has 20-tube missile hard points on the arms. The 5M has an additional missile point, but it's a 1-tube narc point that's not as useful.

It's not much, but if you plan on mounting a pair of LRM20's on a stalker, the 3F does offer some advantage.

Ive seen the tube number thing come up more than once and I'm honestly curious. What does that actually mean? Does the visual amount of tubes actually have a game play impact?

[Ryebear]

I have to disagree with the Dragon 5N statement. This fella is the build I run on it and can only make this build on a Fang (who gets an extra torso energy hardpoint), A triple AC/2 build is also a phenomenal mech and should be discounted.

And before you challenge me by saying the 1N can do it better, an extra missile hardpoint doesnt really help me, 2 SSRM 2s (lower burst and targeted damage for extra consistent damage) or 2 SRM 4s (+1 tonne for +5 damage) arent worth splitting the medium lasers over over torso and arm mounts.

Actually I want to state, straight up, the 1N is by far the worst Dragon variant IMHO.

Edited by Ryebear, 19 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[slash b slash]

shintakie, on 19 January 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Ive seen the tube number thing come up more than once and I'm honestly curious. What does that actually mean? Does the visual amount of tubes actually have a game play impact?

Yes, if you put an lrm20 in that narc slot (which only has one tube) then it will fire 20 waves of 1 missile each. Weapon Cooldown will begin after the last missile was fired.

The STK-3H has indeed 20 tubes per arm, while all the other variants only have 10 tubes per arm.

Also, take an Atlas variant that has a 10-tube lrm launcher and two missile slots. Put in an lrm 20 and he will fire two waves of 10 missiles each. Put in two lrm10s instead and he will fire two waves of 10 missiles simultaneously.

[MonkeyCheese]

My spider is just waiting for the machinegun patch, 4 machine guns 2 tons of ammo with a 100% heat stable large laser that runs at 140kph. gonna be one hell of a crit seeker.

[Dauphni]

One Medic Army, on 18 January 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

When ECM is brought back down (soon I hope) most A1s will probably go back to LRM/SSRM mixes, and still be viable.

As someone who runs an A1 build like that (2xLRM15+A, 4xSSRM2), I can say that it's actually viable right now. Sure, you'll get completely shut down because of ECM on occasion, but if you play smart it doesn't really happen all that often. Honestly, in my experience the odds of your random PUG team just running off and getting slaughtered one by one are higher than that of being useless due to enemy ECM.

[Wrenchfarm]

shintakie, on 19 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Wait, the 5V has its energy hardpoints in the CT? What the flying buck?

Yeah...add that to the list of gimpy mechs. Definitely.

Can anyone think of Medium or Heavy mechs that are gimped? Outside of the Dragons (and a short time in an A1 back in closed beta when 6xSRM6 just became the new hotness) I haven't spent much time in them.

One could make the argument that anything the HBK-J can do, the HBK-4SP can do better. But that isn't really "gimped" so much as "the 4SP is really ******* good."

Similarly, the HBK-G is generally considered inferior to the HBK-H since the extra ballistic slots at the cost of several energy mounts don't net you much with only 50 tons to play with. Again, not gimped, just less desirable. The medium mechs are pretty solid.

The Cents are wonderfully balanced. Some might slag on the Wang, but I wouldn't. An AC20 in the arm is a beautiful thing.

The Cicada with 4 MGs is universally reviled and technically a medium mech.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Some variants may seem gimped but for various reasons, either the missile tube mechanic, or torso twist or what have you, PGI has actually done a better job at ballancing this that I ever would have.