36 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 19 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

4 AC5s are considerably more effective than 4 AC2s.

Only if you have terrible aim.

[Bagheera]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 19 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

I tried the 2x10; it was really nice, but the I liked the 2xGauss a lot better and the 4x5 is my favorite by far because of the nice balance between high damage and high rate-of-fire. I actually haven't tried the 4x2, I just know that whenever I see someone boating AC2s, I just pop in and out of cover alpha striking so their DPS means nothing.

You've pretty much summed it up. The 2x10 config is fun, but its better on a mech like the 3D that can go a little faster and hold more support lasers. Almost like a light brawler. 2xGauss is really the only 4X that gives you any torso twist time between volleys, but every time I run it I feel so cheesy it hurts a little inside! Sort of counter-intuitive because the gauss are so fragile, but if you put 2 tons of ammo with each gun you give yourself a 2/3 chance of a crit to that arm not hitting the weapon and the ammo doesn't explode. Of course if you've depleted the ammo in that location, bets are off.

4x2 and 4x5 require pretty better aim than the gauss build, and also require (as others mentioned) keeping your front face on someone for sustained fire. 4x2 and 4x5 really shine against slower assaults, anything overheated, or anyone who just charges at you blindly.

UAC5/AC5 is also a good build, but since UAC5's will jam from single fire at the moment and there are reports of 1 weapon jamming causing all of them to jam I'm not using them for the time being.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 19 January 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Okay, if you say so

You are roughly the ~9,647th person to "do the math" and come to the conclusion that AC2s are made of pure awesome. I'm not saying they're completely ineffective, but a lot of people have gone down that road and wound up switching to something that works better in practice than it does in theory.

You will have fun with them anyway, they do have the dakka

Utimately, as others have mentioned, it is less about the math and much more about the skill and precision to apply those ac2's. I get great results with them over the 5's but it does take practice. Pray and spray is too tempting for alot of people and it makes the dps advantage negligible. You need to practice and accurately engage the same weakened panel as much as possible....if not, go higher caliber for the alpha to a single spot. But for me the "constant rocking" builds are the way to go.

[Dauphni]

I see you're using Ferro-Fibrous to save some weight on that build. Compared to Endo-Steel, that's pretty much never worth it. If you switch out the FF for ES, you've got just over two tons extra weight to work with for the same crit space. That would allow you to run a Std 225 engine, giving you an extra engine DHS on top of the added speed. You'd even have a little weight left over for more armour on your legs.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Yea, I think I personally always try ES before FF (learned that the hard way on earlier builds).

[Flapdrol]

yeah, endo always beats ferro, was running a 4x2 setup a while back, had a std225, endo decent ammo and a bunch of double heatsinks. It was very slow though. Did brutal damage agianst assaults and had very cheap repairs (was still in back then).

Edited by Flapdrol, 20 January 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[RenegadeMaster]

Bagheera, on 19 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

My 4X is on a semi-steady rotation between 4x2, 4x5, 2x10, and 2x Gauss builds. But I am a sucker for all things dakka.

I think this goes to show the versatility of the 4X's ballistic configurations, and there's one for most role/pilot styles.

Snipers will tend to want Gauss or AC5s due to their range, big punch, and low heat per second.
Meanwhile, brawlers and support/harassers would tend to want AC2s or AC10s due to their high DPS. Since I have a gauss cat, I prefer using my 4X for more of a support role than sniping.

Lately I have been enjoying a hybrid 4X build that helps with:

• Heat management
  
• Harassing snipers at a distance
  
• Medium range for wiping away enemy armor and bagging kills
  
• Not being as slow as most heavy/assault snipers
  
• Won't die immediately from losing a RT/LT

Here is my 4X hybrid dakka build:
Engine: 245 (Speed 56.7 kph OR 60+ on speed tweak)
Armor - Standard: 400 points (max everything but the legs)
Heat sinks (DHS): 14
Heat Efficiency: 1.38
Structure: Endo Steel
Weapons: 2xAC2, 1xAC10, 1xMed Laser
Ammo: 4xAC10, 3xAC2

[Jaded Jasper]

Best loadout I've tried for my 4 ballistic cataphract is 2xUAC5 + 2xAC2. Ocassionally both UACs will jam and desert you, but generally the firepower is strong and even stunning (27 DPS!) when you get a stretch where the UACs don't jam. From my experience it's substantially better than 4xAC2, 4xAC5, or 2xUAC5+2xAC5. Hard to compare to 2xGauss as that's a completely different style of play.

I still prefer something with stronger burst damage, allowing you to make better use of cover and torso twisting to defend yourself, but you can definitely get some mileage out of dakka dakka.

Edited by Jaded Jasper, 20 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Jaded Jasper, on 20 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Best loadout I've tried for my 4 ballistic cataphract is 2xUAC5 + 2xAC2. Ocassionally both UACs will jam and desert you, but generally the firepower is strong and even stunning (27 DPS!) when you get a stretch where the UACs don't jam. From my experience it's substantially better than 4xAC2, 4xAC5, or 2xUAC5+2xAC5. Hard to compare to 2xGauss as that's a completely different style of play.

I still prefer something with stronger burst damage, allowing you to make better use of cover and torso twisting to defend yourself, but you can definitely get some mileage out of dakka dakka.

I keep saying "alpha" when I think "burst damage" is what I mean, there is definite value in damage-right-now vs. damage-over-time.

I've tried to avoid mentioning my Ilya in this thread since it is supposed to be about the 4X, but that is my main that I am running right now with 3xUAC5s. I might try that 2x2+2xUAC on the 4X sometime, it sounds intriguing to me.

[Ryebear]

I dont know how people can make a 2xUAC5 2xAC5 build work, I can barely fit any ammo for either gun in.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Ryebear, on 20 January 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

I dont know how people can make a 2xUAC5 2xAC5 build work, I can barely fit any ammo for either gun in.

Smaller engine or reduced armor I suppose- neither of which I like doing, so I haven't tried that one myself.

[Ryebear]

Smaller engines eat up tonnage with extra heat sinks and DHS' require more space than is available. SHS dont go well with AC/2s either.

[Rorvik]

Coincidentally, I tried out this build today on the CTF-4X. After several hours with it, I can safely say it's a giant piece of ****.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong here, but even with an XL 245 engine (taken off that other 4X, the RVN) and all Basic Efficiencies unlocked, the 4X is so ******* slow and un-maneuverable that it's patently worthless. It basically takes the worst parts of Heavy and Assault mechs and puts them together: slow and tubby and not nearly as much armor as you'd like. And I'm thinking the cockpit hitbox on this mech must be HUGE, because I've been blown up so many times while most of my armor is intact that all you can do is laugh.

Here's the set-up I'm using: CTF-4X (NOTE: I also have the Advanced Zoom module)

If I:

1. Try to hang back and use the quad AC/2 to harass snipers, I instead get sniped by Assaults with extended sensor range who spam their PPCs, Gauss Rifles and, most especially, their LRMs that I'm dead in seconds. I mean, I TRY to run for cover, but remember how I said this mech is ******* slow and, even maxed out, doesn't seem to have much armor?

2. Try to brawl, every mech outside of Atlases and Stalkers (but including non-4X CTFs) will circle-strafe me like crazy. Now, I've done this circle-strafing song-and-dance MANY times before on my Raven, trial Centurion, trial Dragon, and my Hunchback and have not had issues there. Only the trial Stalker has problems, but that's understandable.

I'm beginning to think there's a bug with the armor and / or hitbox of this mech, because I've seen other heavy and medium mechs take far worse beatings and still manage to keep going; even the other mechs I've piloted have taken worse beatings and kept on ticking. The CTF-4X? It only takes a handful of hits to blow it up.

Edited by Rorvik, 20 January 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Dauphni]

Rorvik, on 20 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Here's the set-up I'm using: CTF-4X (NOTE: I also have the Advanced Zoom module)

That build seems horribly unoptimised. 28 free slots? You're really going to want to switch to Endo-Steel. And like others have said, running an XL engine in a Cataphract makes it a walking death trap, so take that out as well. The Mechs that are better served with single than double heatsinks are few and far between, almost every one of them should receive that upgrade. Single LRM5s are pretty much useless, since the five missiles don't do a lot of damage, and a single AMS will usually shoot all of those down before they can hit, so take it out too.

Those changes alone allow you to easily fit in the largest standard engine the chassis will fit. You've still got plenty of slots left over, so add FF as well, and you've got a lot of tonnage to play with for extra ammo and heat sinks. The Large Laser you've got in there is a nice idea, but since it's basically a support weapon to the AC/2s, switching it out for two Medium Lasers makes sense, and gives you three extra tons to work with. Doing all that will have your Mech looking like this, which to me seems all around better while basically playing the same.

[Murku]

Double Xp weekend saw me topping off my Phract pilot trees, last night being the 4X. Load out and playstyle are what makes a final choice, as each of the sets above call for a different mentality. I'm obviously a brawler at heart, as I ended up favouring this:

250std, Dhs, endo, ferro, 2xAC10, 1 LPL, 1SRM4. 100rds for the SRMs, 45rds for the ACs.

Best discovery was the order of firing, SRMs first to faze, adv Zoom then LPL to find cockpit, dual AC when glow appears. Would have been a lot more successful if I was a better shot, had a Ping less than 120, or had a FPS over 20. Still even I got some headshots from 150-odd metres.....

Edited by Murku, 21 January 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[lack of skill]

you migh want to replace some of the weapons with ultra AC/5s

it has higher dps and alpha, with the only problem being tonnage and slots.

maybe 2 uac5 and 2 ac2?

[lack of skill]

like this:
CTF-4X